Minneapolis: Let’s Get Scientific!

The City of Minneapolis is likely going to vote to bar “conversion therapy” for people under 18.

I’m going to add a bit of emphasis:

The controversial practice aims to change a person’s sexual orientation from gay to straight. It has drawn the ire of many in the LGBT community and others, who say it doesn’t work, has no scientific basis, and amounts to psychological torture.

Of course, the “scientific proof” one way or the other is all “social science”, which isn’t “science” at all.

And if it’s “science” we’re concerned with, it’s worth noting that the idea that “homosexuality is genetic” is a political, not scientific, conclusion.

But with that out of the way – I don’t disagree. Society has known for decades that forcing someone to act like someone they’re intrinsically not is a terrible thing that causes horrendous psychiatric damage when forced upon the subject. This was generally well-known – if frequently contested or ignored – even when I was in high school.

As, indeed, the MPR story on the subject notes:

Roger Sanchez of Minneapolis said he wishes such a ban would have been in place when he was a teenager. Sanchez, who is gay, said his father and a bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints both urged him to get psychotherapy to change his sexual orientation.
It did not involve shock treatments or anything physically invasive, but Sanchez said what he went through was damaging because it made him believe he was somehow disordered.

Bully for Minneapolis. 

Now – if “therapy” to “convert” gays to straight-dom is bad, because (social) science…

…then why is forcing boys to act like girls – verbal, cooperative, social, rather than physical, competitive and restless – any better in any way?

Because science, and a look at the state of boys and young men today, certainly shows the social catastrophe that a generation of changing and medicating that natural male energy, rather than teaching boys to channel it and use it productively, has had on society.

When does that come up on the agenda?

23 thoughts on “Minneapolis: Let’s Get Scientific!

  1. Self-identifying as homosexual is associated with a number of pathologies — greater tendency to abuse alcohol and other drugs, greater tendency to be involved with law enforcement, greater chance of diabetes, shorter life span, etc.
    It is entirely reasonable for a person who experiences same-sex attraction to want to change. Shame on the psychologists for teaching people that their sexual ideas and fantasies define who they are as a person. These days, if you want to stay sane, you need to stay the Hell away from psychologists.

  2. Within my lifetime, homosexuality was considered a mental illness. The science was settled.

    Within my lifetime, gender dysphoria (confusion or discomfort because your gender identity does not correspond to your biological sex – the basis for the whole “trans-gender” movement) was considered a mental illness. The science was settled.

    Minneapolis proposes to ban a particular form of therapy for specific mental illnesses, not based on scientific evidence that the mental illnesses are no longer mental illnesses, nor on scientific evidence that the specific therapy is ineffective in treating those specific mental illnesses, but based on popular political sentiment.

    I question the wisdom of politicians making medical decisions. Wouldn’t it be better to formally declare Minneapolis a Sanctuary City for people with mental illness?

  3. Homosexuality is not congenital (neither is heterosexuality). We are talking about behavior. One of the ways our modern age distorts reality is to make sexual identity a classification, like ethnicity. In the “bad old days” the law had more respect for the agency of the individual; Oscar Wilde was not imprisoned for being gay, he was imprisoned for engaging in homosexual behavior. He was convicted on the testimony of his servants, who had witnessed him in bed with a specific person (Lord Alfred Douglas) & these servants had to clean up the mess Wilde & Douglas made of the bedding.

  4. Here’s a thought exercise I’ve had with lefties that have resulted in obscenities being screamed in my general direction:

    Let’s say conversion therapy is immoral because homosexuality is genetic and not behavioral. Let’s say genetic researchers discovered the gene or genes that correlate to homosexual tendencies. Considering documented trends toward sex-selective abortions in Asia and the likelihood of it happening in the developed world, would it be moral or immoral to abort or keep a fetus based upon “gay” gene or genes?

    A friend of mine from high school is Mormon, and she married a formerly-gay man. They’ve been happily married for about 10 years now, with multiple kids. It’s the sort of data point that enrages the Left, because it supports the behavioral argument. Same goes for a long-term ex-girlfriend of mine who now is a lesbian.

    Science, indeed.

  5. NW, well done.

    If conversion therapy didn’t work, the reprobates wouldn’t be spending millions of tax dollars to pay sexual degenerates to teach the joys of buggery to 3rd grade children, and they wouldn’t be funding to bring your child to a tranny day at the library.

    Just gonna keep saying it; these people disgust me.

  6. Regarding the (social) science, there are a bunch of different approaches, so it’s not like it’s monolithic and easy to take a look. Hence, of 47 different studies, 34 are “inconclusive”, and others are rated as “ineffective or harmful.” Now what portion actually found harm, and what portion found ineffective, and what is our difference between “inconclusive” and “ineffective”? Both would seem to be retaining the null hypothesis.

    Whatever the reality–I should not be taking too much time reading all of these–it’s rather thin gruel for an outright ban. My guess, for what it’s worth, is that there are multiple causes of homosexuality, and for those based more on nurture than nature, you might find certain approaches to be very effective at helping those who do not want to be homosexual to assume a heterosexual or asexual identity. Why should we prohibit them? Is there something wrong when someone becomes a heterosexual?

    And if it’s a waste of money, let’s remember we still haven’t banned the lottery or the Vikings. (runs for cover)

  7. Slightly off topic.

    The degenerates have succeeded in reducing yet another treasured American institution to rubble.

    Boy Scouts of America considering bankruptcy
    “Companies are balking at paying settlements in response to sexual abuse allegations.”

    Lets be clear here. This is ANOTHER incident of male homosexuals infiltrating a group to get their hands on young boys. What’s worse is, the BSA bent over for Globohomo, grabbed their ankles and willingly let them do it.

    It’s the loss of membership that killed the BSA, because no proper parent is going to allow their boys to go camping with a sodomite pederast, and degenerate leftist parents never enrolled their kids in Cub Scouts anyway; this was a direct attack on traditional families and decent society.

    These people disgust me.

  8. MP, we’d be remiss not to observe that Lord Alfred Douglas was 21 years old; Wilde just short of 40. The servants you mention who were burdened with removing his feces stained sheets mentioned seeing several very young men in the bed with Wilde. As with most practicing homos, Wilde was a pederast.

    Whatever it’s primary cause, homosexuality, or homosexual behavior to be precise, clearly includes degeneracy at it’s core. They prey on young boys; they abuse drugs and alcohol, they spread filth and disease and many end up killing themselves.

    So hey, let’s have a parade for them; whaddya say?

  9. My simple response to anyone trying to claim homosexuality is genetic is “Mother Nature is not in the business of making a species that can’t perpetuate itself.”

    Neither 2 males nor 2 females can conceive a new life without outside and/or technological assistance.

  10. Lets be clear here. This is ANOTHER incident of male homosexuals infiltrating a group to get their hands on young boys. What’s worse is, the BSA bent over for Globohomo, grabbed their ankles and willingly let them do it.

    Swiftee, because in the last decade, the board of the BSA was infiltrated by progressive business executives. The Girl Scouts are firmly in the hands of lesbian abortion advocates, so the BSA also had to get taken down.

    Thankful that my daughter got bullied out of Daisies in under a year. And that my son’s Boy Scout troop is based in a church, and the leadership is completely heterosexual. We have not had any instances of a girl or a gay boy seeking to join.

  11. Bikebubba wrote:
    My guess, for what it’s worth, is that there are multiple causes of homosexuality, and for those based more on nurture than nature, you might find certain approaches to be very effective at helping those who do not want to be homosexual to assume a heterosexual or asexual identity.

    My thoughts exactly. People are weird. The one thing that separates us from everything else in the universe is that we have free will and moral agency. We have reason. The Left absolutely rejects that model of humanity; you are either born to behave a certain way, or you were taught to behave a certain way by the impersonal forces of society. Their foundational idea of what a human being is, is wrong.

  12. Swiftee Pinochet on November 21, 2019 at 3:02 pm said:

    MP, we’d be remiss not to observe that Lord Alfred Douglas was 21 years old; Wilde just short of 40. The servants you mention who were burdened with removing his feces stained sheets mentioned seeing several very young men in the bed with Wilde. As with most practicing homos, Wilde was a pederast.
    Exactly. Wilde was out of control. He corrupted others to feed his lust. We wouldn’t accept that behavior in a heterosexual. J.M. Keynes had the same perversion, as did Alan Turing. They preferred the company of much younger “rent boys” of lower social class. Maybe it is an English thing?
    And speaking of Turing, another homosexual saint, the reason he was busted was because Turing was doing highly classified work for the UK, and his house was broken into. Turing assumed the robber was one of his “rent boys,” but given the nature of the work he was doing, LE had to conclude that his extra-curricular activities constituted a security risk. And while we are on the topic, Wittgenstein was a genius, but his homosexuality was really weird. He viewed his young partners as objects, like a refrigerator or a toaster.

  13. Regarding the Boy Scouts, the two thoughts that come to mind are that first of all, the pederast infiltration that is troubling them now really got going half a century ago. My grad school roommate’s pastor was one of the victims. It was mostly “closet” pederasts, not open homosexuals, as far as I can tell. The change in policy to allow openly homosexual Scoutmasters may be linked in some cases, but it’s not the big deal.

    Regarding bankruptcy, it strikes me that the Scouts own hundreds of camps, including Philmont. If they file, is it real bankruptcy (obligations > assets), or a legal dodge to preserve assets? My bet is on the latter, and if they really are guilty in these cases, sell some of those camps, yes, including some of the lower altitude parts of Philmont.

  14. BB, you are most likely exactly correct about the early infiltration of the BSA by pederasts (their mental dysfunction leads them inexorably to the places they can most conveniently feed it, ergo the Catholic church). But make no mistake, the death of BSA as an organization is directly tied to it’s public declaration of solidarity with Globohomo; parents simply stopped supporting them, and directed their boys elsewhere.

    I hope the bankruptcy is real, and complete. Perhaps some decent men of conscience will raise it from the ashes. There is today, perhaps as in no time in American history, a need for morally straight men willing to mentor boys. It’s loss is a huge blow, and I’m sure the reprobates are dancing on tables.

  15. MP, it’s a strange thing, but many brilliant men have been homosexuals. It has been said that the line between genius and madness is a thin one, and as someone who has worked around very intelligent, original thinkers for a long time, I bet you can confirm many of the smartest are very socially clumsy (I refrain calling them “wierd” because that term is pretty subjective).

    I do believe there is a genetic component to homosexuality, maybe one that often accompanies very high cognitive abilities, but I also believe it takes environmental nurturing to develop a homosexual lust. Many publicly prominent homosexual men admit they were molested by men as young boys (Milo Yiannopoulos has been very open about this, admitting to both being the victim and perp of pederasty, and the fact that it’s part of the homo lifestyle). Did that flip a switch? Maybe, maybe not, but it certainly didn’t help normal development.

    I believe that most homosexuals know this, and that is why they are pushing so hard in schools.

  16. Swiftee did you come up with the term Globalhomo? O have to say I really like the term and praise its accuracy. Sidenote: there are still countries in Africa and the Middle East where you can be killed for being gay. Kinda funny how that is almost NEVER brought up. Conversion therapy for them is throwing you off a building.

  17. Swiftee, there is at least one group that’s seeking to displace the BSA called “Trail Life”. It’s way smaller than the BSA with only 26000 people, but it’s out there. I’m pretty sure there will be another for Mormons soon, too, with much greater membership, since it’s their youth training program.

    And let me correct myself; I would guess the “mass” infiltration of the BSA by pederasts probably began no later than WWII. I have no clue how much worse things got over time, though. Probably won’t see good data this side of Jordan.

  18. MP, it’s a strange thing, but many brilliant men have been homosexuals. It has been said that the line between genius and madness is a thin one, and as someone who has worked around very intelligent, original thinkers for a long time, I bet you can confirm many of the smartest are very socially clumsy
    I think that you want to avoid the mistake of assuming that our current idea of relations between the sexes is the norm.
    For most of human history, until about a century ago, the sexes were highly segregated. Men spent most of their time in the company of men, doing men things, and women spent most of their time in the company of women, doing women things. This is cross-cultural. Heterosexuality defies convention, not homosexuality. Men used to have sex with women to produce male heirs, they had sex with women to exercise lust, not because they wanted an emotional relationship with a woman. The idea of romantic love between men and women only goes back to the thirteenth century.

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