Raw Nerves
By Mitch Berg
Hundreds of years of vassaldom to the Russians, Germans and Austro-Hungarians.
6-7 years under the Nazi jackboot, with millions – millions – dead as they served as a battlefield, a killing field, a death factory, and finally a battlefield again.
Two generations as slaves of the Soviets.
Just saying, all you Obama supporters – P Obama isn’t bringing Eastern Europe the change they were hoping for:
Poles and Czechs voiced deep concern Friday at President Barack Obama’s decision to scrap a Bush-era missile defense shield planned for their countries.
“Betrayal! The U.S. sold us to Russia and stabbed us in the back,” the Polish tabloid Fakt declared on its front page.
Polish President Lech Kaczynski said he was concerned that Obama’s new strategy leaves Poland in a dangerous “gray zone” between Western Europe and the old Soviet sphere.
And the Poles’ experiences with being in “gray zones” – like when the Brits and French crossed their fingers behind their backs when promising to protect them from the Germans – isn’t all that good.
Recent events in the region have rattled nerves throughout central and eastern Europe, a region controlled by Moscow during the Cold War, including the war last summer between Russia and Georgia and ongoing efforts by Russia to regain influence in Ukraine. A Russian cutoff of gas to Ukraine last winter left many Europeans without heat.
The Bush administration‘s plan would have been “a major step in preventing various disturbing trends in our region of the world,” Kaczynski said in a guest editorial in the daily Fakt and also carried on his presidential Web site.
There’s a reason many Czechs and Hungarians and Georgians keep photos of Ronald Reagan in their houses; in not a few Polish houses, Reagan’s photo is next to Pope John Paul II’s on the mantelpiece.
And I’m thinking they’re in no danger of moving.
Maybe Kerry was right; we could learn a lot from the Europeans…
September 18th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Maybe it’s time to stop in New Prague and get a Czech flag bumper sticker to show my solidarity with them….
September 18th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
The majority of real Czechs and Poles do not share your views and do not support the missle shield.
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/09/eastern-european-missile-shield-is-unpopular-in-eastern-europe.php
East European support for this boondoogle is a mythical as those photos of Reagan over the hearth.
September 18th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Rick,
Wow. Matt Yglesias. Not much of a source – better than “Wikipedia”, I guess, so that’s progress.
And if youi read carefully (hahahaha, I slay me), I was talking about the parties in government that worked out the politics for the missile defense system. They risked a lot, and Obama boned them.
As to the photos of Reagan – nothing mythical about it. I’ve talked with scads of Poles, Georgians, Ukranians – it’s real. Oh, I know – to Rick, “truth” is what he’s told it is, and that’s all there is to it. Deal with it.
“Boondoggle?” Good lord – do you have any thought of any kind that’s not striaght from the party line?
September 18th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Hey Rick! Long time no see?
I take it it’s because you’ve been embarassed at the debacle that your Lord and Savior’s administration is turning out to be?
September 18th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Rick, your source is a blog quoting another blog quoting a university sociology group, at least two of which have an ideological axe to grind. Can you see a little problem with the reliability of your data?
September 18th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Just curious, are the ones who supported the missle shield not “real Czechs and Poles”? Hey, maybe they’re all astroturf! The Left hasn’t milked that slander nearly enough.
September 18th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Can you see a little problem with the reliability of your data?
Has Rick ever even retained any of the questions asked of him, much less seen “little problems” with his endless self-adoring misguided pedantry?
September 18th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Mitch:
It has been awile. To busy making change happen.
“I was talking about the parties in government that worked out the politics for the missile defense system. They risked a lot, and Obama boned them.” That clarifies your point since your writting refered to “Poles” and “Czecks”, not right-wing political parties in those countries. In which case, good for Obama. Those governments went against the will of their people, so they deserved to get “boned”. Our alliance with those countries will be stronger if we persue policies supported by the people of those contries.
“Can you see a little problem with the reliability of your data”
All data has reliability problems. If you have an example of any of the mentioned authors passing on false data feel free to share. If you have any evidence the polling they cite is false or forged, feel free to share. If you have any empirical data that contradicts what they assert feel free to share.
Otherwise, the best evidence we have says East Europeans do not want this boondoggle.
September 18th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
That clarifies your point since your writting refered to “Poles” and “Czecks”, not right-wing political parties in those countries.
Well, apparently I didn’t clear it up enough to to combat the suffocating obfuscation you bring.
No, Rick – Obama boned the leadership of both nations’ elected governments. Not the “parties”, although I know how easy it is for you to mix that up (not that that excuses it).
In which case, good for Obama. Those governments went against the will of their people, so they deserved to get “boned”. Our alliance with those countries will be stronger if we persue policies supported by the people of those contries.
Well, let’s be clear – the “opposition” is a vocal minority. But if the opposition was that intense, the conservative, pro-US governments would lose elections. Yet they’ve been gaining.
All data has reliability problems.
Sure, Rick. It’s just that whenever you deign to provide any, it’s usually risible, and gets lit up like a marshmallow that got too close to a campfire.
Otherwise, the best evidence we have says East Europeans do not want this boondoggle.
Again with the “boondoggle” talk. You know nothing there, either, do you?
And no, Rick – the “best evidence” that you are willing to recognize says that some Poles and Czechs don’t want missile defense. But defense decisions are made by the elected leadership.
And this royal f***up of Dear Leaders is going to strengthen the right in Poland. And here.
To busy making change happen.
You got that cashier job! Excellent!
September 18th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
To busy making change happen.
Yeah, the polls validate Rick. Obama has turned his majority approval into a minority. Keep up the good work, Rick!
September 18th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
It is really no surprise that RickDFL thinks an opinion piece, based on an opinion piece, based on a Czech poll is data he can rely on.
The only question he really has to ask this: does it confirm his bias?
September 18th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
“the “opposition” is a vocal minority”
You should read more carefully. In the Czech Republic a clear large majority opposes the policy. In Poland, it is either a plurality or a majority.
“some Poles and Czechs”
Where “some” means a large majority or plurality.
“And this royal f***up of Dear Leaders is going to strengthen the right in Poland. And here.”
We will see. Of course you thought there was no chance Al Franken would win a Senate seat. Unsuccessfully pursuing an unpopular policy may be the ticket to ellectoral succcess in Poland.
September 18th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Troy:
Facts are facts, no matter where they appear. If you have evidence the poll data from the Czech Rep. or Poland is wrong, feel free to share.
September 18th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Of course the Poles and Czechs don’t want a missile shield. Why would they have anything to fear from their neighbors? The government officials quoted in the article Mitch linked, however, seemed plenty concerned. Oh well, you know how out of touch government leaders can be and how unhappy they are if they don’t have some crisis they can be solving.
Strange that Pres. Obama didn’t cite the popular opinion of the citizens as being a major reason for his decision; that would seem to be a natural opportunity. Of course, if he started putting credence in polls and popular opinion he might have to jettison his healthcare plan.
September 18th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Mitch:
“the conservative, pro-US governments would lose elections. Yet they’ve been gaining”
Actually, the most recent Polish parlimentary elections saw the far-right and most pro-boondoogle Law and Justice party of President Lech Kaczynski (who you cite above) turned out of government. It was replaced by the Civic Platform party which was far less enthusiastic about the boondoogle.
http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2007/12/the_future_of_us_missile_defen.php
Once again, I recomend checking facts instead of just going with what you ‘know’.
September 18th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Rick,
Night is right; for you to claim that Polish/Czech popular opinion has anything to do with Obama’s decision is…well, I was going to say rhetorically dodgy, but that’s really all you do, isn’t it? It’s wrong!
And while a popular poll (parsed properly) of Poles and Czechs may well show a majority opposed (to some degree or another, and of course we don’t know how the data was aggregated), it’s for sure that a majority of Czechs and an ultramajority of Poles see the idea of the US Administration putting Russian interests above theirs through a gimlet eye. Got any polls on that? No worries – I’ll find them. And I’m sure you’ll be off “making change” when that bad news comes in (paper, please).
If you have evidence the poll data from the Czech Rep. or Poland is wrong, feel free to share.
Not so much wrong (questions about aggresgation notwithstanding) as irrelevant; Obama screwed the elements of the elected governments that worked so hard to enact the plan and, worse, showed the people of Eastern Europe that Putin is calling the shots in the US/Russian relationship. And given the history in the area (I’m sure you’re unaware of any part of it), that’s a very bad thing for our reputation there.
But keep believing the crap you shovel.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
RickDFL said:
“Facts are facts, no matter where they appear”
Well then, we should probably put orange cones out around the “possibly untrue” parts of the Internet for you, RickDFL, if that is what you believe. *snicker*
September 18th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Mitch:
“Obama screwed the elements of the elected governments that worked so hard to enact the plan”
Actually it looks like the elected governments are content we are no longer trying to force the boondoogle on them.
” “Canceling the radar by no means jeopardizes the security of the Czech Republic as the country is safely entrenched in NATO,” Czech Foreign Minister Jan Kohout said. Poland’s foreign minister, Radoslaw Sikorski, said he had secured assurances from Washington that the U.S. would honor a commitment to deploy Patriot missiles in Poland, made as part of the deal to host the shield.” No denunciations here.
“worse, showed the people of Eastern Europe that Putin is calling the shots in the US/Russian relationship.” But on this issue, the people of Poland and the CR agree with Putin. Or reputation will be improved because we are no longer forcing them to accept a program they do not want.
“I’m sure you’re unaware of any part of it” Bold talk coming from the guy who did not know the most pro-missle defense party lost the last elections in Poland. But anytime you want to quiz me on Pilsudski, Katyn, or Gomulka feel free. If you stump me I will show you my photos of the Polish tanks that closed the Falaise Gap. I do so enjoy getting lectures on history from you.
September 18th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
Rick,
If you think what the elected governments are putting out is “contentment”, then you probably belong in the DFL.
The Patriots are the consolation prize, both in terms of security and economic impact. As to “forcing” them to accept anything – huh? Where WAS that coercion, anyway?
The Polish tanks never “closed” the Falaise Gap; they came close to it, and withstood the German attempts to push them back – but the gap was never closed. Hence it was a “gap”.
And better yet – you quiz me about anything you want re Polish history in the past 300 years.
Unlike you, I won’t have to go to Wikipedia.
September 18th, 2009 at 11:02 pm
Well then, we should probably put orange cones out around the “possibly untrue” parts of the Internet for you, RickDFL, if that is what you believe.
Ok, that’s funny. I don’t care who you are.
September 18th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
I think what the Polish government is saying is, “With all this horseshit there’s got to be a pony in here somewhere, and we find it we can throw it at the Russians, so it’s not like we’ve been totally left out to dry.” And in April Obama was telling them how brave and courageous they were, so they’ve got that going for them.
They’re not totally abandoned; there’s plenty of company underneath the Obama bus.
September 19th, 2009 at 8:13 am
quiz me about anything you want re Polish history in the past 300 years
Oh! Oh! Who wanted Poland to become a kingdom again at the end of WWI, Alexander or Metternich?
September 19th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Czar Al.
September 19th, 2009 at 9:39 am
RickDFL,
I’d like to know the genesis of your little “supposed reverence for Reagan” bit.
This is something that all sorts of people have observed; most of my Eastern European friends, even twentysomethings who have little or no memory of the era, observe it to me.
And while I do know that it was only Rick talking out his butt, I’d love to hear your putative side of the story.
September 19th, 2009 at 10:55 am
“even twentysomethings who have little or no memory of the era, ”
The 15 and 16-year-olds that my daughter hung with in Krakow held the same reverence for not only Reagan, but also Bush. Obama? Not so much.
September 19th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Do you see, Rick? That’s not something a DFL droog could just Google. It shows not just familiarity with the topic, but in depth study.
So when you put your leftist hearsay up against Berg’s proven knowledge, guess who is more convincing?
BTW, Metternich was Austrian. I hear Obama has hired an Austrian interpreter for his next state visit.
September 19th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Mitch:
Having failed to show the Polish public wanted missle def., then not being able to find any support from the current Foreign minister of the elected Polish government, you are now reduced to positing imaginary displeasure concealed within his public statements.
So let me explain Sikorski’s comments for you. The Patriots are not a “consolation prize”. Civic Platform ran on the platform that the Bush mis. def. plan was a bad idea, but that if the Americans really wanted they would go along. Weaker powers often defer to the wishes of the stronger allies (whether it is a case of “force”, I leave to the readers). Civic Platform argued that they would force more concessions then the ruling Law and Justice party from the U.S. in return for Polish consent. The fact that Civic Platform wanted “concessions” for going along with the Bush plan should tell you how most Poles feel about the plan. The Patriots were one of those concessions. Now Sikorski has the conessions (Patriots) without having to go through with the bad idea of the Bush plan. Best of all possible worlds for him.
“the gap was never closed” Well we both know what happened during the battle (probably because we both read the same Keegan book). Whether what the Poles did counts as ‘closing’ the gap is just a verbal question, I have no desire to debate. If you want to argue your point, I suggest you start with a group of Polish soliders or veterans. Maybe you should look up 2Lt Karcz of the 10th Dragoons who wrote of his meeting with the U.S. 90th Infantry advancing from the south “that was the precise moment when the Falaise Pocket was closed”.
“you quiz me about anything you want re Polish history in the past 300 years” I cast no aspersions on your general knowledge of Polish history, I just point out cases like this where you are wrong.
“I’d like to know the genesis of your little “supposed reverence for Reagan” bit.” Once again pretending to quote things I never said. My guess is Reagan is fairly popular in Eastern Europe. I just doubt very many Poles keep a photo of Reagan next to JPII. The Poles I know certainly didn’t.
As for MON, want to take a bet on what a approval rating in Poland of Obama vs. Bush II. I will take my man any day. According to this he stomped Johnny Mac in 2008 Polish polling.
“Poles favour him over John McCain by a three-to-one margin”
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/sep08/BBCPresidential_Sep08_pr.pdf
September 19th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Wow. More poll “data”. How utterly impressive. How, oh how, could I ever “prove” polling “data” wrong. Woe unto us who would try and refute these granite “facts” upon which RickDFL stands. *snicker*
September 19th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Well Troy I am all ears. Exactly how would a genius like you determine whether Bush II or Obama was more popular among people living in Poland? Inserting and/or withdrawing items from your rectum does not count.
September 19th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Let’s see.
From Dick the Tic ‘s link
“Thirty-eight per cent of Poles would like to see Barack Obama elected US president while just 13 per cent say they prefer John McCain and 49 per cent do not express an opinion.”
but in 2004
“A similar poll conducted for BBC World Service by GlobeScan ahead of the 2004 US presidential election found that, of 35 countries polled, 30 preferred to see Democratic nominee John Kerry, rather than incumbent George Bush, elected president. At the time, the Philippines, Nigeria and Poland were among the few countries to favour Bush’s re-election.”
Pretty inconclusive regarding Obama to Bush. I’ll stick with my daughter’s first hand impressions.
September 20th, 2009 at 8:16 am
Rick,
My point doesn’t depend on showing that Poland wants a specific program; whether or not the Poles want missile defense, they overwhelmingly do want more NATO involvement in the country and, beyond that, their “allies” to follow through on their commitments.
You might even know why.
September 20th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Well, I might not use poll “data” as the one feeble leg my argument stands upon and then throw the word “fact” around. Regardless, even though this topic seems all-consuming for you, I don’t think that particular “point” is really worth my time. *shrug*
September 21st, 2009 at 12:08 am
Rick DFL says:Having failed to show the Polish public wanted missle def., then not being able to find any support from the current Foreign minister of the elected Polish government, you are now reduced to positing imaginary displeasure concealed within his public statements.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090918/ap_on_re_eu/eu_eastern_europe_missile_defense_22
http://www.examiner.com/x-15968-Hartford-Independent-Examiner~y2009m9d20-Ruminations-on-Obamas-Eastern-Europe-policy-troop-surge-in-Ahfghanistan-and-health-care
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/18/world/main5320000.shtml
September 21st, 2009 at 9:33 am
Ben:
The only actual Polish ellected official cited in your three articles is President Lech Kaczynski. As I mentioned his Law and Justice party strongly supports the plan, but they were turned out of government in the most recent Parliamentary elections.
September 21st, 2009 at 9:44 am
Rick,
But, again “the plan” is only the surface of the issue.
Obama bypassed the Poles and Czechs completely in dealing with Putin, and was manipulated by Putin into making the accouncement, by surprise, on September 17; it’d be like Germany slapping tariffs on Israel products on April 19.
And that’s just stupid and incompetent, whatever the subject is. And that – not the missiles themselves – is why the Poles, our greatest friends in Europe, are re-evaluating their relationship with us.
Stupid and incompetent. I Hope we Change things in three years.
September 21st, 2009 at 11:31 am
Rick, does the fact that the Polish public feel completely sold out not mean anything to you? Now if we were doing this to a bunch of French or even German people it would be more understandable because they are a bunch of ungrateful bastards but ever since Poland broke off from the USSR they have been known for their fierce loyalty to America and its government (as Mitch has pointed out) and this is how we repay them? Obama called them at midnight and threw them under the hopey changitude bus. Obama sure likes to throw people under the bus when it is no longer convinent to have them on his side. The fact he is siding with Russia over them creeps me out.
September 21st, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Ben,
Don’t bother. Rick is one of those “My Country, Right Or Wrong (provided the President is a Democrat)” types.
September 21st, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Ben:
“does the fact that the Polish public feel completely sold out not mean anything to you” No, because that is the exact opposite of the truth. Obama’s decision is quite popular with both the Polish people and the current parlimentary majority. See here:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE58I0FP20090919
Poland will be a more not less loyal friend not that we are not urging them to do something they think is stupid.
Mitch:
“Obama . . . was manipulated by Putin into making the accouncement, by surprise, on September 17.”
Diplomacy is not junior high. Countries don’t sulk because Susie got invited to the big party before they did. The timing of this announcement (or any announcement) will have exactly Zero impact on our long term relationship with Poland. Taiwan and Japan were furious about not being notified about Nixon’s opening to China. They quickly got over it and there was exactly zero impact our our long term realtions with them.
September 21st, 2009 at 5:43 pm
I guess we will have to put our faith in RickDFL’s ability to predict the future because he has been correct so many times in the past. 😉
September 21st, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Troy, that was a (necessary) cheap shot. Don’t piss Rick off though, despite the fact he’s a liberal he actually has some grasp on world events and reality which makes him better than 95% of the libs in this country today. Lets be civil with him, angryclown though is still fair game.
September 22nd, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Ben:
I will return the compliment. Unlike 95% of conservatives you cite actual evidence.
September 22nd, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Countries don’t sulk because Susie got invited to the big party before they did.
So you’re saying that Poland is not especially sensitive about being dealt out of negotiations regarding its defense and sovereignty, especially where Russia and Germany are involved?
And you think the date was of no significance to either Putin or the Poles?
Please comment for the record.
The timing of this announcement (or any announcement) will have exactly Zero impact on our long term relationship with Poland.
Perhaps not.
But it will have plenty of short-to-medium term impact on it, as well as on the world’s imperssion on whether we (or, hopefully, just the Administration) keeps their commitments.
September 22nd, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Mitch:
All countries are sensitive about their defense and soverignty. Last I checked those contires are not run by astrologers.
You keep claiming we made a “commitment” to build the radars. We got permission, but nothing in the text commited the U.S. to actually building anything. The Poles did not want such a commitment, because they did not really want the thing built.
Read the text here:
http://www.msz.gov.pl/Agreement,regarding,the,placement,in,Poland,of,anti-ballistic,defensive,missile,interceptors,20825.html
September 22nd, 2009 at 3:22 pm
All countries are sensitive about their defense and soverignty. Last I checked those contires are not run by astrologers.
Nice way to throw your hands in the air and try to equivocate – but even you, having claimed some mastery of Polish history, should be aware of the added significance the Poles attribute to 9/17, and to betrayal in general. Hence the anger you’re reading in the Polish press (you DO read the Polish press, don’t you? I do). It’d be like the Canadians unilaterally withdrawing from Afghanistan on 9/11.
You keep claiming we made a “commitment” to build the radars. We got permission, but nothing in the text commited the U.S. to actually building anything.
Ah. Didja year that, Polonie? RickDFL didnt’ find the word “Commitment” in his copy of the agreement! It’s all a big mistake! YOU’RE ALL WRONG! RICK SAYS SO!
September 23rd, 2009 at 8:49 am
“It’d be like the Canadians unilaterally withdrawing from Afghanistan on 9/11.”
To which I and anybody with half a brain would respond just like we would if they did it on 9/10, 12/12, or 3/7. The policy is far more important that the symbolic date it is announced on.
“YOU’RE ALL WRONG!’
I am certain FM Sikorski has not accused us of violating the Rice-Sikorski agreement. I doubt anyone else has. We certainly reversed our announced policy, but that is a far cry from undoing a formal commitment. Feel free to cite any Polish sources claiming we violated a formal commitment.