Dilemma
By Mitch Berg
On the one hand, I support charter schools. They are the only real form of school choice available to people who don’t have the money to send their kids to private schools. They are the only alternative to the failed inner-city public school systems for most low-income students.
On the other hand, charter schools are supposed to follow rules – and in the case of Tarek Ibn Ziyad Academy (in Blaine and Inver Grove Heights), there have been credible allegations that TIZA broke a big one, the Establishment Clause. Charter schools use public money – each student’s allotment of state ed money – to operate; the law says that money can’t support religion. Other charter schools in the state use the parochial school model to get excellent results, while scrupulously leaving actual religious instruction for times and places outside school; TIZA may not have, and may have reacted poorly to the allegations.
On the third hand, TIZA gets the kind of results that many charter schools, and all urban public schools, should envy. With a student body that is 80% low-income and 2/3 of whom speak English as a second language, TIZA gets math and reading test scores that shame most schools of all types, everywhere in the state (and nationwide). They are obviously doing something right.
On the fourth hand, they are allegedly doing something wrong; the American Civil Liberties Union took TIZA to court.
On the fifth hand, the first of the ACLU’s three suits got dismissed last week.
On the sixth hand, TIZA is counter-suing the ACLU:
“TiZA was forced to take these steps because of the tortuous interference the ACLU has caused one of the state’s best public charter schools,” said Erick Kaardal , TiZA’s legal counsel. “The ACLU’s claims are meritless as TiZA has followed state and federal regulations. TiZA hopes the court will prevent the ACLU from inflicting further interference and defamation with a permanent injunction.”
TIZA is suing the ACLU for “an amount exceeding” $300,000 for defamation, interference with the contract between TIZA and its students’ parents, and screwing with their ability to hire teachers.
So who do you root for? The Establishment Clause (allegedly), or anyone who’ll cut the ACLU down a notch?
Both?
July 29th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Classic intimidation tactic. Nobody ever dare investigat TiZA again.
July 29th, 2009 at 9:34 am
Results and running afoul of the Establishment Clause law are two separate issues.
They get good academic results – great for them! They are not beholden to EM and actually care about he kids and I am sure get parents involved – all of which leads to good results. However, so does Talmud Torah and St. Croix Catholic. The only difference between the three is Joe MN Public is paying for children at TiZA to to be taught Islam, while at the other two, it is parent’s choice to teach their kids Judaism and Catholicism respectively. Oh, and those same parents, against their will, are paying for those children at TiZA to be taught Islam.
What is happening in this case, as in many others such as cab drivers, Islam is being used as a basis for being exempt from the law, and to provide Muslims with preferential treatment not given to any other religion. So go ahead, Dhimmi Berg, keep justifying TiZA’s illegal appropriation of public funds, just because they get results.
July 29th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Mitch, how many hands do you have? Which one do you write with.
This is one of the rare ocasions where I agree the moonbats at the ACLU. You can bet they are more torn apart than you over this one.
Seagren should have stopped funding last year, but she feared the race card. Kersten caught the wrath of the liberal gods when she reported on TIZA. Yecke would have pulled their plug.
Low socio-economic status is not a hinderance as long as there is a mom and dad at home that make sure the kids go to school and do their homework.
ESL: If english is not the first language one learns, it will alway be a “second a language.” ESL does not mean the kids aren’t profficient in english.
Test Scores: If TIZA is knowingly violating the Establishment Clause, what makes you think they aren’t helping the kids cheat on tests. It would be very easy to do.
July 29th, 2009 at 9:47 am
Right,
The beeyotch of it all is that I don’t necessarily disagree with you, mostly.
Although:
Seagren should have stopped funding last year, but she feared the race card. Kersten caught the wrath of the liberal gods when she reported on TIZA. Yecke would have pulled their plug.
Yecke would have done a proper investigation, and the chips would have fallen where they fell. Even if TIZA did violate the Establishment Clause, it’s not grounds to shut the school down without further discussion.
Low socio-economic status is not a hinderance as long as there is a mom and dad at home that make sure the kids go to school and do their homework.
True, and it doesn’t detract from my point one iota.
ESL: If english is not the first language one learns, it will alway be a “second a language.” ESL does not mean the kids aren’t profficient in english.
Never said it did! But it adds a wrinkle – and in the cases of the students involved, it means they are coming from homes with non-English primary languages. It’s something that absolutely bedevils conventional schools. Don’t believe me? Check out Saint Paul’s issues with H’mong speaking students.
Test Scores: If TIZA is knowingly violating the Establishment Clause, what makes you think they aren’t helping the kids cheat on tests. It would be very easy to do.
Er, there’s a couple of really big “Ifs”, there. I’m afraid we’ll need a little more than raw conjecture, especially on the latter point.
July 29th, 2009 at 9:55 am
It’s fun when right-wing theocracy meets right-wing xenophobia. Too bad they don’t like Jesus, eh? Then wingnuts wouldn’t have all this nasty cognitive dissonance.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Muslims revere Jesus. My God you are ignorant.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Right on cue Clownie comes in and validates what the other two commenters said about demonizing anyone who dares question TiZA. Why is Clownie such a racist?
July 29th, 2009 at 10:42 am
This is what is going on in Canada (see NRO today). They sue anyone who stands up to them. Multiple lawsuits if possible.
But geesh, if they are going after the hate-filled bigots at the ACLU, I may have to support TIZA.
July 29th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Oh I suppose they like him well enough, Terry. Just don’t go telling your Hezbollah kidnappers that he’s divine, OK? On second thought, why not give it a try!
July 29th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Enough hands for a good poker game; this discussion could use some beer and pretzels.
July 29th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Oh, yeah:
If TIZA is knowingly violating the Establishment Clause, what makes you think they aren’t helping the kids cheat on tests. It would be very easy to do.
If it’s that easy, given the number of schools (public, private and charter) that are on the No Child Left Behind bubble, then there should be an epidemic of it. ALL schools would be succeeding, wouldn’t they?
I’ll await actual evidence of this cheating, on the part of TIZA or any other school.
July 29th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Mitch, on the two “ifs” – the first was isn’t so big. The second one’s not much bigger, but like the SES and ESL stats, good test scores don’t justify breaking the law.
Regarding your third hand, do you feel that is a reasonable argument to use get to have people simply look the other way regarding the EC, or are you playing devil’s advocate? Either way, the “success” of TIZA is irrelevant to the issue of using public funds for religious education.
I’ve followed this story with interest since Kersten first reported on it. It’s been a game between cat and mouse. (Is Blois Olson still their mouth piece?)
A) I think the ACLU will win, save for some judicial activism.
B) Rather than change their instructional practices to meet the letter of the law, TIZA will go private.
July 29th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Mitch, I do believe that have been cases of cheating, but I can’t find a link.
Any cheating would likely be done on a small scale and not in a overt fashion. A teacher could allow extra time, or offer some coaching after he/she has seen specific exam quesitons.
I do believe some cheating goes on, and probably more so for school on the NCLB bubble. Hopefully what would prevent cheating, is an administraton actively pushing a zero tolerance policy. The administration at TIZA seem to prefer use the “catch me if you can” approach.
July 29th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
The second one’s not much bigger, but like the SES and ESL stats, good test scores don’t justify breaking the law.
Don’t say they do. Merely that TIZA, from all objective evidence, with all unsupported allegations notwithstanding, seems to be an experiment worth pursuing, from a perspective of educational results.
Regarding your third hand, do you feel that is a reasonable argument to use get to have people simply look the other way regarding the EC, or are you playing devil’s advocate?
Neither. They are separate, unrelated points.
Either way, the “success” of TIZA is irrelevant to the issue of using public funds for religious education.
I don’t disagree, although I wonder why you put success in scare quotes?
I’ve followed this story with interest since Kersten first reported on it. It’s been a game between cat and mouse.
Well, yes. And if they’re breaking any laws, there need to be consequences.
I’d have preferred TIZA be more forthcoming. On the other hand, I can see their side, to an extent; to go to the other side of the spetra, the General John Vessey charter school and the Friends of Education charters a lot of flak from the left for their various models (Vessey is a JROTC program; FoE’s programs borrow heavily from Catholic schools, and are linked to a sponsor run by MN GOP chair, Bill Cooper). If someone infiltrated one of those schools and published an uncomplimentary report – one with which the school disagreed, perhaps with justification – would the school be obliged to play the PR game with the lefties who object to ’em?
(Is Blois Olson still their mouth piece?)
Tunheim, for whom Olson works, is TIZA’s PR firm.
A) I think the ACLU will win, save for some judicial activism.
Meaning…? What judicial activism are you predicting?
B) Rather than change their instructional practices to meet the letter of the law, TIZA will go private.
With a student body that is 80+% low income, that doesn’t make much sense.
July 29th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Mitch, “success” was meant as a one word summation to the paragraph you wrote with you third hand.
I have noticed a pattern of you citing TIZA test scores in your posts. If you truly believe this is seperate and unrelated to the EC issue, why bring it up?
I know nothing Vessey or FoE. But to answer your question, they don’t have to deal at all with the lefties. That being said, when the accusations become so specific and public it would be in their best interest to do so. It becomes a matter of “what are you hiding?” As far as PR, TIZA and Blois get and “F.”
Regardless of their PR, the state needs to announce with confidence, that they have thoroughly investigated the matter. Seagren dropped the TIZA issue like a hot potato(and an e for Dan Quayle).
Judicial activism: Something like a judge deciding that the school needs to make special accomodation to meet religious requirments. If the fatwa says go the the gym for prayer, they go to the gym for prayer.
Public/Private Correct me if I’m wrong but TIZA was originallly planned to be a private schoo. They went public for the the high low income percentage you cite above. Several years have passed since then. The students are still poor, but there is much more Muslim wealth in the metro area. I don’t know the financials of MAS-MN, but they may have the resources to fund a private school and provide scholarships. The Muslim culture places religion above most everything else.
Something tells me you’re pushing buttons to liven up the crowd. If that’s true, you’ve done a good job.
July 29th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
I found your post interesting, but I want to clarify a few issues. First of all, I have children at TIZA and have for 4 years. What everyone doesn’t get is not whether or not the school is teaching religion, but what the school ALLOWS to accommodate that religion. People don’t understand Islam and this is the problem. There is not one minute of religious instruction at the school (in fact, during all 4 years, my children have never had a Muslim teacher) until the optional and expensive ($600/yr/child) religious studies program after school. I do not have my children enrolled and therefore they come home after school and not after the after-school program. However, Islam is very much a lifestyle, and those that follow Islam tend to do so with much more intensity and strictness than their Christian counterparts. Therefore, when the Islamic religion requires that you pray 5 times a day at specified times, the children must be allowed by law to do so…and most want to. When the religion requires that you never eat pork, it would be pretty stupid for the lunch menu to serve pork when the vast majority of the students are Muslim. When pervasively “Muslim” language is used in the school (for instance hearing a teacher or administrator say the word “Inshallah” which means the same as God-willing or Hopefully) would we have the same concern if it was a non-Muslim teacher saying “God-willing”? I don’t think so. What people need to realize is that Islam is not a religion alone, it is very much a lifestyle, and if the constitution allows for religious observation, you CAN NOT be surprised if it rears its head in a predominantly Muslim school. I do assure you, though (and I realize that I am nobody to any of you) that the school does NOT teach any sort of Islam…It simply allows the children to BE Muslim.
As for the cheating insinuation, well that’s just childish. This school works its BUTT off in Math and Reading because many of these children do NOT have a good foundation of either. It actually sacrifices a lot because the school really doesn’t offer any other liberal arts options. It simply teaches Math, Science, Social Studies, and Reading/English. It also has an award winning ESL program (awarded by outside sources, not the school). Also, because of accusations like these, the school was monitored this year during testing and found to have NO issues at all.
I hope this helps clear some of this up.
July 30th, 2009 at 9:34 am
“…for instance hearing a teacher or administrator say the word “Inshallah” which means the same as God-willing or Hopefully…”
Hmmm, and yet “…in fact, during all 4 years, my children have never had a Muslim teacher…”
“God-willing” is vernacular and non-denominational, “Inshallah” – not quite.
Answer me just one question, why is it that ONLY Islam has to be accommodated – at taxpayer’s expense yet? You don’t see crosses or confessionals or bima’s at any other public schools. Being Jewish is also very much a lifestyle, yet you do not hear about taxpayer-funded schools bending over to accommodate them.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:01 am
I said that my children have never had any Muslim teachers, I did not say that there weren’t any Muslim teachers. The Arabic teachers are Muslim and a few of the home room teachers are as well, but as of now, my children have not had any homeroom teachers who were Muslim. God willing may seem non denominational (it’s not actually, it has nothing to do with denomination, it has to do with language. You won’t find a Spanish speaking child saying God willing, he/she would be saying Dios quiere.) however, it is still a religious saying that does NOT warrant any ACLU attention. Remember, the separation of Church and State is for ALL religions. People happen to be so used to Christianity being infiltrated in schools that they don’t even bat an eyelash. i.e. Holiday breaks at Christmas and Easter in EVERY public school, Saturday and SUNDAY off each week, The Pledge of Allegiance saying, “Under God”…and that’s even mandatory in schools. Imagine if the Muslim Children changed it to “Under Allah” oh the uproar…I can hear it now!
Now for your last point: “Answer me just one question, why is it that ONLY Islam has to be accommodated – at taxpayer’s expense yet? You don’t see crosses or confessionals or bima’s at any other public schools. Being Jewish is also very much a lifestyle, yet you do not hear about taxpayer-funded schools bending over to accommodate them.”
However, I don’t think you’ll like the answer. It is not that Islam is the only one that HAS to be accommodated, the fact is that it is the only one ASKING to be accommodated! Maybe that says more about the state of Christianity in this country than you’d like to admit.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:31 am
“…It is not that Islam is the only one that HAS to be accommodated, the fact is that it is the only one ASKING to be accommodated!…”
BS, and YOU know it!
Oh, and in case you missed the history lessons wherever you went to school, USA laws are based on Judeo-Christian ethic. You, know, the Ten Commandments. “Pledge of Allegiance” is not a freeform peace of poetry. What if I decided to change “Allah” to “G*d” in the Koran? No problem there? Yes?
Why can’t you be content living in this country based on its existing laws? Why do you insist on making sure there is a separate set of laws for followers of Islam? At non-muslim taxpayer expense?
July 30th, 2009 at 11:32 am
piece, peace…
July 30th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Point of order – I believe “Inshallah” is more or less vernacular.
Aboyn:
I found your post interesting, but I want to clarify a few issues. First of all, I have children at TIZA and have for 4 years. What everyone doesn’t get is not whether or not the school is teaching religion, but what the school ALLOWS to accommodate that religion. People don’t understand Islam and this is the problem.
Well, true to an extent – I do understand more about Islam than most Americans (took a college class, read a bunch of Anthony Lewis, and my mother lived in Turkey for many years), but I”m no expert, and being a Christian I don’t have to be 🙂 But JPA makes a good point; public schools, and the charter schools my kids have attended, don’t take it upon themselves to “accomodate” Christianity.
There is not one minute of religious instruction at the school (in fact, during all 4 years, my children have never had a Muslim teacher) until the optional and expensive ($600/yr/child) religious studies program after school.
Not that I don’t believe you – but that’d seem to contradict the observations that Katherine Kersten made last year – that the buses were held until after-school instruction was over, and that there seemed to be no way to opt out of prayers for, say, hypothetical non-Muslim students.
Who’s right?
I do not have my children enrolled and therefore they come home after school and not after the after-school program. However, Islam is very much a lifestyle, and those that follow Islam tend to do so with much more intensity and strictness than their Christian counterparts.
You say numerous times that Islam is a lifestyle, but Christianity is not. It’s wrong, of course; for starters, there are many different denominations of Christianity; most denominations are light on physical manifestations (diet restrictions, foot washing group prayers), but being a Christian most definitely affects ones’ lifestyle, very intensely.
I don’t think so. What people need to realize is that Islam is not a religion alone, it is very much a lifestyle, and if the constitution allows for religious observation, you CAN NOT be surprised if it rears its head in a predominantly Muslim school.
While I’m aware of both the lifestyle aspects of Islam as well as the idiomatic nature of the term “Inshallah”, you’ve pointed out the double standard.
Observation of the major events in the Christian year, and what they mean in the life of the Christian, are a major part of Christianity; Easter and redemption, Christmas and rebirth, and others. And any reference to any of these are actively squelched in public and most charter schools, on “constitutional” grounds related to (what I believe to be a specious interpretation of) the Establishment Clause. I”m going to go out on a limb and guess that references to Eid, Ramadan and other Muslim holy days are not actively squelched at TIZA. Am I correct?
Now, understand – I don’t want them to be squelched. I merely think that the expungement of all things Christian and Jewish from the public school systems is a miscarriage of the law.
Imagine if the Muslim Children changed it to “Under Allah” oh the uproar…I can hear it now!
Actually, I’d love to see that; provided that they are pledging allegiance to the United States’ secular government and its constitution (which explicitly recognized that we are endowed with freedom by “our creator”), I’d defend that.
It is not that Islam is the only one that HAS to be accommodated, the fact is that it is the only one ASKING to be accommodated! Maybe that says more about the state of Christianity in this country than you’d like to admit.
Not really. Again – Christianity doesn’t stress as many physical rituals as Islam or Judaism; there are theological reasons for this, and it’s not a spiritual weakness.
And while you make a useful point that Christian traditions (Christmas vacation, sundays off) are a part of the rhythm of American life, there has been an active disaccomodation of Christianity, specifically, in the past thirty years. Kids can’t pray before sports events; Holiday decorations have to be scrupulously generic. Worse than that? While atrocities like the Inquisition are taught, the role of Christianity in forming Western Civilization and its liberal traditionsis actively squelched.
Here’s a question for you: Muslim groups and students have gotten “accomodations” for Muslim lifestyle strictures installed at public institutions at public expense (MCTC’s foot baths and prayer space being a famous example); these sorts of accomodations for Christians are never made, even allowing for the fact that there are fewer of them. I’d support allowing Muslims to pay for these accomodations privately – but I’d note that Christians and Jews aren’t allowed to do even that in public institutions.
Thank you, by the way, for the thought-provoking comments. If I may ask, how did you find this blog? I believe you may be the first Muslim commenter to have appeared on this site.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:53 am
“Point of order – I believe “Inshallah” is more or less vernacular.”
Not in THIS country.
July 30th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
No, that’s true. But being a social libertarian, I’m loathe to have government tell people how to interpret meaning in their native languages.
If it’s vernacular to Muslims speaking in Arabic (and Turkish and Farsi, for that matter), why would it not be for us?
July 30th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
My last word on this:
First of all, I was born in America, was born Christian, and probably know more about the Christian faith than you do. Your immediate assumption that because I’m defending the school, I must be Muslim, and I must be an immigrant who needs to be content to live in this country shows a pretty large bias right there. Remember, Islam is the 2nd largest religion in this country, so you’re going to have to wipe away you assumptions that Muslims are all Immigrants who don’t want to conform to the U.S. laws. Many have been “conforming” to those laws since BIRTH!
The issue is this school, and the fact that they do NOT want a different set of laws, they simply want to be allowed the rights that the U.S. LAW guarantees.
Find me ONE person who can show ANY proof the Islam is being taught during school hours, and I will agree with your frustration about tax payers paying for religious instruction. However, you never will b/c it doesn’t happen. As far as religious accommodation…it is the LAW, and if you don’t like it, well, I guess you are the one who isn’t, “content living in this country based on its existing laws.”
July 30th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Aboyn,
I hope this is not your last word, since you’ve made a valuable contribution to the topic and, I’ll add, my understanding of it.
However, I think you’re being just a tad defensive, here, with no really good reason. I’m the conseravative who’s been defending TIZA.
First of all, I was born in America, was born Christian, and probably know more about the Christian faith than you do.
Possible (I doubt it, but hey) but not really relevant.
Your immediate assumption that because I’m defending the school, I must be Muslim, and I must be an immigrant who needs to be content to live in this country shows a pretty large bias right there.
Er, I didn’t make any such assumption; I assumed, in fact, that you are a native English speaker (you write like one – and I say that as someone who is multilingual and studies linguistics for fun).
I do not think it excessively onerous to hope that immigrants are content to live here, though.
Find me ONE person who can show ANY proof the Islam is being taught during school hours, and I will agree with your frustration about tax payers paying for religious instruction.
Right – did you read Katherine Kersten’s piece on the subject last year, where a substitute teacher alleged exactly that? Or Scott Johnson’s pieces, which documented the TIZA administration’s reticence to discuss the topic?
However, you never will b/c it doesn’t happen. As far as religious accommodation…it is the LAW, and if you don’t like it, well, I guess you are the one who isn’t, “content living in this country based on its existing laws.”
With all due respect, I need to ask – which “law” are we talking about here?
I’ll allow that it might be – but not only have I never heard of it, but the supreme law of the land, the US Constitution, has been used to disallow exactly these kinds of “accomodations” in the past.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Mitch,
Thank you for your comment, the above was written for justplainangry, so I will comment on yours.
First of all, I have a google alert for TIZA and that is how I came across your blog. Second of all, I think we agree on a lot of issues as far as religion in school goes. Unfortunately, I don’t, and I’m guessing your don’t, really know what is the best course of action for all involved.
The U.S. constitution puts forth a secular law, but does not squash people’s rights to practice a non-secular life, privately or publicly. What I am saying about Islam versus Christianity is the following: that a Christian’s observance of ones religion is very much inward. If they want to pray, they can simply close their eyes and do so at any time, there are no (although some say there are) restrictions upon what one should eat, therefore you would never know if someone is Christian or not based on their diet. There are no specific dress restrictions for Christians, so again, a Christian would not be recognized based on clothing. Also, the language of Christianity is very much a cultural one. Christianity has all but lost its original language and has adopted the language of whatever land they are in.
Now, this is all fine and makes adapting to the culture of the land very easy. So, let’s take a look at Islam:
In Islam, you too can pray whenever you want, but there are 5 prayers a day that MUST happen within a specified time frame and they are also physical in nature (kneeling, prostrating, etc.). If one or two fall during the school day, if you do not want to incur sin, you MUST pray then. As far as children, this rule only applies to the older children. Along with pray, Muslims must do a religious washing before prayer, it takes about a minute but is required.
Muslims are also forbidden to eat Pork or anything made from Pork. Something very identifiable to Muslims/Jews.
Muslim’s have relatively strict clothing restrictions, so while this is a little more variable, it can become easy to identify a Muslim…especially a woman because of her head scarf.
As far as the language, something important in Islam (but not required) is the ability to speak Arabic. Every Muslim knows some Arabic, as the prescribed prayer is in Arabic, but also many everyday terms that naturally English born Muslim will also be in Arabic.
Now, I mention these things because they are some of the reason why Muslims are always told that they get a different set of laws. Muslims can not practice their religion without these things. That being said, to see them in the school is simply an accommodation of religious observation and it is simply all that the school is asking for. When I say that Christianity is not asking, I mean that their religion, in general, does not require any special accommodations, because aside from Church on Sunday, most religious activity is inward.
As far as footbaths in MCTC, it is something that was a nice accommodation, but not required. I would absolutely support any kind of accommodation that would be made for Christians/Jew/Buddists or any other religious group if they asked, but really, what would they ask for.
I agree that all things Christian/Jewish should NOT be expunged from the school, I think it would be better if schools could be inclusive of all religions…at least those represented by that school. Now I’m going to go out on a limb and say that if all the students in the school are Christian, they should have Christmas parties and celebrate Easter. The problem is, our country is a melting pot and always has been and this singular religion doesn’t happen very ofter. That being said, we have 2 options: we can either squash every religion…take out any reference to religion at all (no Christmas Holiday, Easter, Eid, Ramadan) and have totally random holidays, or, make accommodations for them all. The latter could become more difficult, but if we were to find some way to work it, I think it would be the better option.
I truly believe that the more we can learn about each religion, culture, etc. The fewer wars and need for trillion dollar defense budgets we will need.
But, back to reality 🙁 TIZA is a school that is not giving up its rights to religious accommodation but is also not teaching that religion. They may have walked the line a little with buses going out after the religion program (something they remedied last year), but in no way are taxpayer dollars going towards Islamic education. They are, however, going towards an excellent education program for many at-risk children who would likely otherwise be lost in the system only to join the growing number of gangs in the twin cities.
Thanks for your comment Mitch, and I hope I clarified some of my earlier comments.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Mitch,
My earlier comment was not directed towards you…that might be why I sounded defensive. However the last one was 🙂
July 30th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
You did. Thanks! More responses later – as well as much more on the subject in weeks to come.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
“Your immediate assumption that because I’m defending the school, I must be Muslim, and I must be an immigrant who needs to be content to live in this country shows a pretty large bias right there.”
I was right on the first count.
“Remember, Islam is the 2nd largest religion in this country”
Nothing to “Remember” here. 2008 ARIS study shows Christianity at 76%, Agnostics/Atheists at 15%, Judaism at 1.2% Islam at 0.6% and Buddists at 0.5%.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
If it’s vernacular to Muslims speaking in Arabic (and Turkish and Farsi, for that matter), why would it not be for us?
However, Arabic, Turkish and Farsi are NOT native to this region. I am using the following definition of vernacular – using a language or dialect native to a region or country rather than a literary, cultured, or foreign language
July 30th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
“Your immediate assumption that because I’m defending the school, I must be Muslim, and I must be an immigrant who needs to be content to live in this country shows a pretty large bias right there.”
Oh, and how do you know I made an assumption you are an immigrant? Now YOU are assuming something and putting words in my mouth.
And I still contend that is not much to ask to conform to laws of the country they live in, birthright has nothing to do with it, instead of asking for religious ACCOMMODATIONS not offered to anyone else.
July 30th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
You’re right justplainangry, I meant to say that it’s the fastest growing religion in the U.S. and the 2nd largest in the world.
July 30th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
b3g, very well articulated response. However, all these accommodations are making TiZA into an exclusive Muslim school. As you say, if majority of student body is Muslim, then why serve pork at the cafeteria? Well, if there are non-muslims in school, would TiZa make an accommodation for them and serve ham and cheese sandwiches for lunch? Once school becomes “exclusive”, catering to a certain portion of the population, it ceases to be a “public” school.
Now, I do realize charter school system is actually designed to allow for individuality and hence some “exclusivity”. And if that was that, all the power to you. However, this is may not be the case here. TiZA, based on 1st hand accounts and subsequent court filings have stepped over the line. You maintain they did nothing wrong – well other people dispute your position. Fact that TiZA management refused to deal and answer questions directly does not look good either. Courts will decide.
Oh, and speaking of lifestyle accommodations – where do YOU draw the line? Polygamy? Do you think Muslim cab drivers should be able to refuse fares to people with seeing-eye dogs? Honor killings?
July 30th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Justplainangry:
“Oh, and speaking of lifestyle accommodations – where do YOU draw the line? Polygamy? Do you think Muslim cab drivers should be able to refuse fares to people with seeing-eye dogs? Honor killings?”
As Muslims, our religion mandates that we must follow and abide by the laws of the land we live in. Therefore, Polygamy is not allowed for Muslim if they live in the U.S. Honor Killings…well that’s simply ignorance on your part if you believe that has anything to do with Islam, and I will, therefore, not address such trash. The seeing eye dog issue was one that was declared to be allowed by the Scholars of Islam…both to transport and to own if needed. A few misguided Muslims should not represent the entire religion.
What you need to understand is that to most practicing Muslims, their faith comes before ANYTHING else…and whether they understand the religion properly or not, they do not feel the pressure to conform if it will deter them from the ultimate goal of reaching paradise one day. In and of itself, this is a good thing. We should not let others deter us from what is right or prescribed by God; however, the problem lies when the understanding of ones faith is skewed or lacking. This is where you get problems like the seeing-eye dog issue or Honor Killings (which actually are a cultural thing not a religious one). And to be fair, this lack of understanding is in all religions, not just Islam.
That being said, this doesn’t have anything to do with TIZA. In the end, the school has never been officially accused of teaching Islam. It has only been accused of blurring the lines between Church and State. These are very different things, and while I agree that there are still some things that the school still needs to change (simply to become more transparent), religious education is NOT one of them.
July 31st, 2009 at 11:52 am
Honor Killings (which actually are a cultural thing not a religious one) and Islam is very much a lifestyle
So, which one is it?
What you need to understand is that to most practicing Muslims, their faith comes before ANYTHING else…
And for an American, it is USA and laws prescribed therein. What you are alluding to here is that you will never be satisfied, until USA is an Islamic country.
In the end, the school has never been officially accused of teaching Islam.
Wrong. That is the entire basis for ACLU suits. How else would you “blur the lines?”
July 31st, 2009 at 12:47 pm
My final comment to you justplainangry is this: Islam becomes a Muslim’s lifestyle, not the other way around!
As for the ACLU suit, I’ve read it top to bottom. There are no accusations of teachers teaching Islam. The main focus of accusation is the entanglement of the school with MAS MN, and prayer during school hours. Please read it and become more enlightened. Also, these are simply accusations, not facts.
Justplainangry: It’s not healthy to be angry all the time…it can really skew your outlook, and you seem to need a new one. My suggestion is that you change your i.d. to something like “thingsarelookinup”.
July 31st, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Islam becomes a Muslim’s lifestyle
Can you be a Muslim and not follow Islam?
There are no accusations of teachers teaching Islam. The main focus of accusation is the entanglement of the school with MAS MN, and prayer during school hours.
Prayers lead by teachers. Nope, no instruction/conflict here. Just a simple accomodation.
these are simply accusations, not facts.
Since you have a horse in the race, please forgive me if I do not take your word as gospel.
My suggestion is that you change your i.d. to something like “thingsarelookinup”.
As for lightening up, I don’t remember Christians, Jews or Buddists burning cars in the streets and threatening to kill people just because of a couple of cartoons.