I Confess Unclarity
By Mitch Berg
OK – so you’d think a post that starts like this…:
I got the stinky meat smell out of my car.
…can’t possibly end well. And in fact I’ll let you be the judge. But local lefty(?)blogger and longtime commenter Discordian Stooge writes:
Our [Katherine Kersten] is enraged about religion in schools. Shocked? Don’t be. It’s only because it’s an Islamic school.
Of course, I agree with her. The school is obviously supporting religion, and specifically Islam. Since it’s a public school, it’s wrong. But of course, we dangerous atheist lefties support the Muslim hordes and only hate Christians, so we’ll ignore this. Oh, wait.
Stooge (if I may call him Stooge, since “Disco” seems a bit stretchy) is writing about Kersten’s expose on the Tarek Ibn Ziyad Academy, a Moslem-focused – or, according to Kersten’s source, completely Islamic – charter school in a Saint Paul suburb.
I’m not going to get into the “discrimination against Christians” argument; although there’s plenty of evidence of it, let’s come back to it some other time.
Here’s my real question; there is no figure in the Twin Cities’ media that inspires more irrational and, frankly, unseemly derangement than Katherine Kersten. From the day it was announced the Strib was going to hire an actual conservative as a columnist, Twin Lefties – from Nick Coleman and the Strib Editorial Board to the usual array of leftybloggers – howled like a bunch of feral beagles, and churned out enough ad homina to power a good-sized wind turbine.
Of course, anyone who takes a partisan position invites a counterposition. Such is debate.
But when Stooge says…:
Anyway, until [Kersten] decides that religion in public schools is wrong, not just the religions she doesn’t like, I’ll continue to ridicule her.
Well, that’s a choice one may make. But I have to ask…
…when has Kersten supported “religion in public schools?”
Not “school choice”, mind you (and for clarity’s sake, let’s not go into “Vouchers”, since if you throw out vouchers you also need to throw out government-sponsored grants and government-secured student loans to anyone who attends a religious-affiliated college or university), or perhaps inveigling schools to relax a bit about allowing faith-affiliated groups to use the occasional school facility outside of school hours (since their parents paid the same taxes everyone else did, or thoroughly-voluntary prayer, say, in the locker room before a football game.
When has Katherine Kersten supported something equivalent to the Tarek Ibn Ziyad Academy – a publicly-funded school that has a fundamentally faith-based program that would be hostile (passively or actively) to a student of another faith from the opening bell to the moment the bus dropped him off at home?
I’d like some of Kersten’s critics to answer that one.
As to this bit…:
Honestly, Star Tribune, hire Cap’n Fishsticks as a columnist, or maybe Mitch Berg.
Stooge, what did I ever do to you?
(Hee. Thanks).
Oh, and…:
Someone who can come up with an original idea, not just copy from other right-wingers.
Have a word with Flash, when you have a moment.
April 11th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Kersten is not a terribly strong columnist. She writes (or wrote, when I last paid attention to her columns on a regular basis) too many book reports.
I wish that she’d apply her free-market philosophy to things like public financing for stadiums, but (as far as I can tell) she never seems to get around to it.
Her column on TIZA could have been a lot stronger. I would have suggested that she differentiate between accommodations that seem reasonable and those that clearly cross the boundary that the state has outlined for public schools. For instance, many schools offer lunch options that allow students to keep their religious dietary requirements.
April 11th, 2008 at 9:39 am
DS didn’t say Kersten had written articles advocating religion in school, though I suspect she has, and it’s not our responsibility to prove it, when her past other statements so clearly indicate her preference for ‘traditional values’ teaching in schools. No, you are attempting to put the onus on us, when we don’t have such a responsibility when, and here is the important fact –
You know darned well she supports prayer in school, and you know darned well she’s complained about religious symbols (christian symbols) being taken down from publicly funded displays. You are asking us to prove something I strongly suspect you already know to be true, why?
You’ve created a strawman – does Kersten support religion in school – rather than focus on the issue – is she in fact just complaining about this because it’s Muslim vs. Christian..
Or is it that you honestly think Kersten oppposes prayer in school? For that matter, do you? What limit then between what you support for religious expression in school, and TIZ Academy, wouldl you define?
April 11th, 2008 at 9:42 am
As Peter H said, this should be a discussion about what the reasonable limits ought to be, not some nonsense about whether Kersten is competent, or whether Christianity is discriminated against.
I am serious, just as PeterH I’m sure was, when I ask, what reasonable limit would you put on a Christian (or any other) charter? The challenge is that charters get pretty broad license to do what they want once the charter is approved. We may not LIKE how TIZA does things, but we created the monster here, so how do you put the genie back in the bottle?
April 11th, 2008 at 9:52 am
In the interest of fairness – that was a good comment, Peev. (Well – the second one, anway).
“What reasonable limits can we put on religious charter schools” is really the second question to ask. The first is “does the law – and the Constitution – forbid activities like TIZA’s?” And after reading Scott Johnson’s piece at Powerline, I’m arguably less clear on that.
April 11th, 2008 at 9:58 am
I suspect she has, and it’s not our responsibility to prove it
I’m not asking for “proof”, I’m asking for concrete examples of Kersten’s overt support for Christian-centered public education. And since Stooge basically implied that there was some equivalency between what Kersten wants and what she’s complaining about with TIZA, it’s not an unfair question.
when her past other statements so clearly indicate her preference for ‘traditional values’ teaching in schools.
Traditional values aren’t necessarily religious. I grew up in public schools, and religion – barring the odd invocation here and there – was nowhere to be found. And yet my teachers – many of them WWII vets – taught “traditional values”; respect, self-respect, honoring your country and your family, yadda yadda.
No, you are attempting to put the onus on us
No, Peev, I’m asking a question. There’s no “onus”, since nobody would assume anything derogatory about someone who didn’t answer.
You know darned well she supports prayer in school,
As a matter of institutional fiat? I know no such thing, and would strongly doubt it to be true.
and you know darned well she’s complained about religious symbols (christian symbols) being taken down from publicly funded displays.
Yes, but that’s very different than teaching a religious-focused curriculum.
You are asking us to prove something I strongly suspect you already know to be true, why?
I strongly suspect it to be false.
You’ve created a strawman – does Kersten support religion in school – rather than focus on the issue – is she in fact just complaining about this because it’s Muslim vs. Christian..
No, Peev, I’m asking for proof – rather than inferences that I suspect are as faulty as the ones you’ve drawn above – that Kersten supports a Christian version of what TIZA delivers. Stooge implied there was some such support on Kersten’s part. I STRONGLY doubt it.
April 11th, 2008 at 10:14 am
In peeve’s comments above we have the Democratic party dynamic of identity politics in a microcosm: simply because he perceives Kersten to be conservative, he insists without proof that she must support certain policies.
Stereotyping is something that’s supposed to be bad, right libs?
April 11th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Nerdbert,
Considering that Peev thinks Don Shelby to be a moderate conservative I’m not sure we can trust his judgement.
(I suspect he also enjoyed that Damn Boat Movie.)
April 11th, 2008 at 11:57 am
“and you know darned well she’s complained about religious symbols (christian symbols) being taken down from publicly funded displays.”
To the left, the traditional American Christmas tree is a religous symbol, and therefore it needs to be banned.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:57 am
simply because he perceives Kersten to be conservative, he insists without proof that she must support certain policies
A fair point. On Wednesday, he referred to Blackfive as a “hateblog”, with no further elaboration.
Blackfive is, in fact, a former Navy SEAL (IIRC) with plenty of justification for an opinion.
I think “hate” is a hotkey that lefty writers use when they can’t think of anything better. Sort of like “Moonbat” is for some right-wing bloggers, when used to the sort of excess that “hate” sees from the left.
April 11th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Mitch, you freely call Democrats hate mongers too, please, let’s remember we both use the same language when it suits us.
I think, if we had the chance to ask Kersten, she’d come out four square behind school prayer. I don’t know why you’d think otherwise.
However, that said, I think you support it – and the real problem certainly isn’t your support, but that researching Kersten is a pain in the ass (I almost said bitch -but that would be insensitive ;). You have to pay for back access to the Strib online.
I think her past comments reflect pretty clearly her leanings. You argue otherwise, ok, but I think if people judged on balance, you have no proof either, or, put it this way – you are making one claim, DS another. Her comments on many other topics align with DS, and few if any align with yours.
As for BlackFive, anyone who chooses to react SAME DAY and start leveling stupid and baseless accusations, can reasonably be assumed to be a polemicist – and since the standard fair of polemicists is division, and division breeds hate, sorry big fella, but he qualifies as a hate blog.
April 11th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Badda, since Shelby self identifies that way.. you tell me what to call him then? I mean, I suppose we should take your label over his, you undoubtedly know more than he does about his own political preferences.
April 11th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
BTW, I mean her comments align with DS’s claim that she supports religion in school (prayer in school being the classic example), not with DS.. doh.
April 11th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Finally, WordPress has accepted my request to make comments. I only had to change the spelling of my name.
Stinky Meat is a serious problem in this country, and you would do well not to ridicule it 🙂
Stooge is a fine nickname, far better than DiscoStoo, which is what Learned calls me.
I’m happy with the STrib having a conservative columnist. I just think it should be one who can write.
I don’t get the Flash comment. Maybe you meant Spot, since he writes about Kersten constantly?
April 11th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Nerd, just an aside, I see folks (nearly all of them righties) making assumptions about my intentions all the time, accusing me of a pretty large rash of foul things, without proof, and of course, utterly incorrectly.
So, I don’t personally think making the assumption that Kersten supports prayer in school is a large leap of faith (pun intended) nor is it anyything clsoe to as agregious as the assumptions which are made about Democrats on this blog by commenters on a daily basis.
April 11th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
egregious.. Mitch, I’d give you $100 if you inserted a spell checker for me :).
April 11th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Peev,
I might very well self-identify with being a firetruck. Are you going to take my word for it? What’s more, please indicated where Shelby claims he is a moderate conservative… and if he has, can you find anywhere to suggest that it is more than lipservice?
We can’t trust your judgement any more than we can trust Shelby’s. Get the point now?
April 11th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Mitch, I’d give you $100 if you inserted a spell checker for me 🙂
Run Firefox, problem solved. Misspell a word? Red underline. Right click and select the correct spelling. One problem: the dictionary seems to prefer British spellings, but you can correct that.
I’ll take payment in Guiness.
I see folks (nearly all of them righties) making assumptions about my intentions all the time
Nearly all of them are righties precisely because that is the bulk of the population of this site. Visit the MNMon and the statistics skew the other way. Just remember, it’s not the most of the folks on the right who get knots in their panties about profiling.
In this case, though, your entire argument and attack on Kersten’s position was the fact that you believed she supported school prayer without justifying it. That’s a weak point from which to start to build a persuasive argument. In fact, one might call it little different than a strawman.
The interesting thing about the school in question is that one can make a strong case that the school in question is not functionally different than the parochial school my kids attend. In case you’re curious, a fair number of the kids who go to parochial schools aren’t Catholic and at least at our school it’s structured so that they can leave early rather than attend mass or catechism classes, although (just like at TIZA) they’d have to find their own transportation if they didn’t stick around. I’m half tempted to tell the Bishop that he should switch over to a chartered school so that I can save the tuition money and he can get more funding.
April 11th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
as re spelling: What Nerd said. Firefox inserts a pretty handy spell checker (at least into the edit field control that this blog calls). Pretty slick.
April 11th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Disco Stoo:
I call you Disco Stoo because you referred to yourself that way once and I thought it was brilliant. Don’t go changin’ Disco Stoo.