You Might Not Really Support The Troops If…

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3 responses to “You Might Not Really Support The Troops If…”

1. 

   billhedrick

   March 20, 2007

   what we are seeing in the last few years is what is called the banalization of evil. What moral men would be repulsed by is becoming so commonplace as to render some people incapable of disgust.

2. 

   phaedrus

   March 20, 2007

   I’ll bite.

   If You Believe: that America has problems – huge problems – then dissent is American.
   But If You Believe: …that America’s problems make it an inherently rotten concept, then maybe you should think about whether you’re living in the right place.

   To answer that, I need to define America – if the fundamental definition of America is the country defined by the Constitution then yes, I believe America has problems, some of the huge, but that it is an inherently good concept.

   w00t, still American.

   However, if as I’ve heard some assert, America is fundamentally a nation of some religion or is fundamentally a nation of some set of economic rules then we need to get a lot more detailed.

   If You Believe: …that America’s projection of power around the world is immoral – then dissent is American.
   But If You Believe: …that any projection of American power is inherely unjust because it’s America, then maybe you should be living in, say, Sweden? Just an idea.

   Well… I believe that most projections of power that aren’t reactive are immoral. I also believe that any projection of power required to defend oneself is justifiable – “even for America”.

   w00t again.

   If You Believe: …that capitalism is wrong because its inequalities are inherely unjust, then dissent is American.
   But If You Believe: …that the free market is inherently, irrevocably evil, perhaps China would be a better fit? Just suggesting…

   China may not be a good example, its my understanding that they’ve tried a number of free market experiments including at least one that was an “ideal free market”. Monolothic government + huge nation gives them the ability to try many interesting experiment. I realize all societies experiment but while its a bit too blatantly treating people as game pieces, it doesn’t qualify as believing free markets to be inherently and irrevocably evil. Of course, this is unverified by me so perhaps I misunderstood or was minsinformed.

   But, in any case, as I stated on one of the socialism threads, I believe that one should be able to profit from the “sweat of one’s brow” which implies some personal acceptance of capitalism.

   In any case, I think I can pass this one.

   If You Believe: …that invading Iraq was wrong, then dissent is American.
   But If You Believe: …that our temporary administration of Iraq is worse than Hussein’s 30 year reighn of horrors, then perhaps you should rot in hell we need to have an attitude adjustment.

   I believe that our administration is certainly less malign than Hussein’s. I also believe that the Kurdish areas of Iraq are undeniably better off. I am uncertain that the well-being of the average “person on the street” on a day to day basis is better now than it was during Hussein’s rein. It seems that if you’re Shi’ite or Sunni in the wrong regions, your chances of being kidnapped/tortured/killed are higher now than they were before.

   As I’ve stated in another thread, things may end up better off in the long run, but I’ve got a fair degree of concern that they’ll end up a lot lot worse. I hope I’m wrong. It’ll be well worth any loss of “political capital” for this to work out and to have a stable and, if not just, at least non-murderous government in place.

   So, I may be tripping into un-American territory by your criterea here as I really am not sure that things are going to work out to be better than Hussein’s 30 year rein of horrors. I am truly concerned that for many there now, the horrors are already worse and that if the surge doesn’t work out, its going to spiral into something gut-wrenchingly abominable.

   Bummer, but at least I don’t have to worry about rotting in hell for these beliefs. I believe the only hells that exist are the ones we create here on earth.

   If you believe: …that the war in Iraq is wrong, and you want to pull out now and bring the troops home, then yes, while I think you’re wrong (and most of the troops clearly agree), but your dissent is certainly American.
   But if you believe: …that this isn’t deeply intensely sick, then no. Your dissent is not “patriotic”, and you do not “support the troops”, and your opinion is worthy of scorn at least, but only if we’re in a really good mood.

   I believe the war in Iraq is wrong. As I’ve stated before and implied above, I do not want us to pull out now and bring the troops home but based on the context I see in the pictures above, I do not believe it is intensely sick.

   If I did it, it would be sick. I believe in America and to do that to the representation of those who put themselves in harms way for America would be wrong. They do not choose where they go to war, they serve. We choose where they go to war.

   However, (and I realize I am interpreting the beliefs of others based on a photo), I believe that the people depicted there are anti-statist anarchists. They are anti-American because they believe America is a state and as a state, is inherintly coercive and therefore evil and wrong. There was a time that I toyed with those beliefs but I realized that while I share many anarchist beliefs against hierarchy and rulership, I am not that kind of anarchist. I believe that style of anarchism will inevitably leads to tribal and clannish structures which leads to inter-tribal warfare and rule of the thug.

   Effigy burning in my mind is sick, but in a society where we do it to support sports teams, its probably more fair to ascribe the sickness to the society than to the individuals involved. So, if these people believe that the state is inherently wrong then those who volunteer to die and kill to protect the state – police and soldiers – are natural targets for this sort of demonstration.

   Fortunately for them, they live in a country where they get to express those thoughts without being jailed or killed.

   Of course, if they entertained the idea of moving from symbolic demonstration to actual action against people, they are not only sick, they are hypocrites as violence is a fundamental form of coercion and fundamentally violates anarchist ideals when used for anything other than defense.

   Soo… technically because I kind of believe parts of both and its implied as an exclusive OR situation, I think I might get the pass on this one.

   So, all in all, if you guys turn out to be correct and things work out in Iraq, I pass. w00t.

   Btw, Mitch, there’s something (I’m guessing its that ad) breaking the ability to leave comments on the “Doh! It’s The Old ‘Kill Thousands, Get Captured, Talk Big’ Trick!”.

3. 

   mike

   March 20, 2007

   phaedrus.

   Let me guess. You’ll spend 15 minutes registering for a newspaper website just so you can participate in one of their online polls and then vote “undecided”, right?

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