Joe Doakes from Como Park emails:
There are 10,000 sworn officers employed in Minnesota. They shoot an average of 10 people per year for the past 15 years No police officer was charged in any of those deaths. There are 200,000 Minnesotans with valid permits to carry a firearm. The Violence Policy Center (a gun-control advocacy group) tracks their offenses going back to 2008. Permit holders shoot an average of 2 people per year. Four permit holders have been charged with crimes (two are pending).
Police shoot 1 person per 1,000 cops. Permit holders shoot 1 person per 100,000 permit holders. Permit holders shoot fewer people in total, and fewer people per capita, than police. Minnesota police are 100 times more likely to shoot somebody than Minnesota pistol permit holders.
Minnesota police shooters are never charged, just like FBI shooters are never charged. That could be because no Minnesota law enforcement officer has ever made a mistake; it could be because of institutional bias shielding members of the law enforcement community from the consequences of their mistakes; or it could be because the law gives police officers special privileges that are denied to permit holders.
What is the correct procedure when an officer is approaching a vehicle during a traffic stop? Hand on pistol, just in case the driver is a threat to the officer.
What is the correct procedure when the driver identities himself as a cop? Most likely, the officer can take his hand off his pistol because even though the driver has a gun, that particular driver is not a threat to the officer. If the officer wants the driver out of the car, what’s the procedure to secure a fellow officer’s gun — take it away or let him keep it?
What is the correct procedure when the driver identifies himself as a permit holder? Statistically, that driver is even less likely to be a threat to the officer than when the driver is a cop. Shouldn’t the “not-a-threat-to-the-officer” procedure be similar – hand off the pistol? If the officer wants the driver out of the car, what’s the procedure to secure a permitted carrier’s gun – take it away or let him keep it?
If the procedures are not identical, why not? If the statistics show permitted carriers are less likely to shoot than fellow cops, why is the procedure different? Tribalism, loyalty to the Blue Line Clan? Stereotyping? That’s not a rational basis for treating safer people worse.
If there were a rational basis for a difference in procedures, how should they differ?
And most importantly of all, how do we inform officers and permitted carriers of the procedure, to make sure that nobody dies from mis-communication?
Joe Doakes
It’s the second-scariest thing about carrying.
A friend of mine who is a cc holder, told me about a time when he was pulled over for speeding. He and his brother were going to dinner. He was carrying and his brother was not.
He told his brother to stretch his arms out and hold his hands flat on the dash and to keep them there, while he had both hands gripping the top of the steering wheel.
When the officer got to the car, before the officer could say anything, he said, “Good afternoon, officer. I want you to know that I
have a Sig P220 in a holster on my right hip. It is loaded, but there is no round in the chamber and the safety is on. My passenger is not armed. My permit and driver’s license are in my wallet in my right rear pocket and my proof of insurance is in my glovebox. Now, how would you like to proceed”?
The officer was silent for a moment, then asked my friend to exit the vehicle. He kept his hands visible at all times, as he did so. When he was out, the officer said, “Sir, for the safety of both of us, I’m going to remove your weapon and place it on the trunk deck, is that OK”? Of course.
After the gun was out of reach, the officer asked to see his license & permit, while telling my friend that he handled the situation beautifully and that he was so blown away by it, that he almost forgot why he pulled him over. He allowed my friend to holster his Sig and let him go without a ticket.
If all of us could remember to do that, it would probably help.
“No police officer was charged in any of those deaths.”
Apparently, under Mn law, if an officer says in the moment he feared for his life it is a righteous kill. His is the only testimony that counts. Period.
If I were to have a carry permit and be pulled over, I’m stealing boss’s technique. (not what some are alleging about the tragedy recently; that the gun was on his lap and the car may have smelled of pot, and he may have resembled the perp in an armed robbery)
And I agree that it is kinda suspicious that the police rarely get tried for use of excessive force after they kill someone. If they’re doing their job right, they should be exonerated most of the time, but 100% is hard to believe. Time for a review of why we spend so much effort on traffic enforcement, body cameras, and citizen review of these decisions.
“It is loaded, but there is no round in the chamber and the safety is on.”
Translation… it’s not loaded.
Myke: NO. First of all, if there is a magazine in there, the gun is to be treated as loaded, legally speaking. Second, every good gun owner treats EVERY gun as if it is loaded, even if he just took/fired the last round out. If you remember that, you will NEVER have a firearms “accident”.
And you NEVER trust the safety. NEVER. Use it, but do not trust it.
Myke,
Rule #1: They are always loaded.
Rule #2: Never point your firearm at something you’re not willing to destroy (because if it goes off, that’s what’ll happen; see Rule #1)
Rule #3: Keep your finger off the trigger ’til you’re ready to shoot (because it’s always loaded.
Rule #4: Know your backstop: know where your bullet is going to end up if you shoot right now.
While Mitch is, of course, 1000% correct, I also get Myke’s point that a semi-automatic, without one in the chamber, is nearly useless in a tactical situation.
I understand the four rules.
My point is that carrying with no round in the chamber is little better than carrying an empty gun.
Small quibble. I think it’s smarter to talk about the permit first and the weapon second. And to never say the word “gun”.
“I have a concealed carry permit. It’s in my wallet on my left hip. My weapon is holstered on my right hip. How would you like to proceed, sir?”
Yes, and yes.