One of the interesting things, to me, about the whole Marcotte kerfuffle was that you actually saw a bit if integrity on the part of many leftybloggers. While many among the thin film of left-leaning Christian bloggers were quite rightly offended by Marcotte’s raw bigotry (and John Edwards’ slimy cynicism), the interesting thing to me was that you didn’t see all that many bloggers on the infidel left complaining that Marcotte was much of an aberration. Oh, you saw the usual complaints of “she’s being taken out of context” (which pretty well deflated when one saw the context) – but I don’t think anyone ever tried the “most leftbloggers tolerate religion just fine” response.,
Which is good, because the tradition of bashing faith (or at least Christianity; Islam and non-observant, Israel-phobic Judaism are not quite so feared) is wide and deep on the left. Especially locally.
Not that finding it is especially interesting. PZ Meiers’ rote phumphering is sort of like Joan Jett playing “I Love Rock And Roll”; you know it’s coming, it’s always the same, whooeee.
And you read stuff from Mark Gisleson…:
I am certain that each and every day for centuries now somewhere in the world a Catholic nun or priest has done something extraordinarily good. I’m also sure most martyrs died nobly and were pure in their beliefs. And I’m even more sure that not once in the history of the Roman Catholic church has the hierarchy ever done the right thing, instead siding, consistently, with the monied and privileged.
…and wonder if he just didn’t get enough attention out of farting in church as a kid.
At any rate, the big, sweeping hatreds like Marcotte’s and Meiers’ don’t bother me as much as the casual bigotry that seeps into the daily exhortations of the “regular” leftybloggers (and the petty left in general). It’s there that the heart of the left lies.
Jeff Fecke – local rent-a-blogger who writes for Minnesota Monitor, an organization paid for by an organization that shares space with George Soros’ “Media Matters for America” (but which to the best of my knowledge has never revealed the source of its funding) but who sniffs and calls Michael Brodkob a paid republican operative, has apparently discovered a “talent” for Photoshop, linking to a piece in MinnMon about an incident in Sioux Center, Iowa, involving a group of gay activists’ vans being apparently vandalized with anti-gay graffiti.
Fecke’s headline:
Your Moment of Zen (or, that Vaunted Christian Tolerance)
Ah. So without knowing who were the suspects, Fecke blames the incident (assuming it was legitimate vandalism – and some interesting questions were raised in the MNMon comment section, which you should read) on Christians? And, more directly (given the wording and tone of his headline) a trait of people who call themselves Christian?
For starters, if we assume the incident was legitimate (and when it comes to local leftists’ stories of faith-based hate crimes, “trust but verify” is my philosophy – face it, local lefties, too many of your fellows have abused the media in the past), it most likely has much more to do with anti-gay sentiment that is still a deeply-ingrained part of much of rural America. Imagine if you will a bus full of Israelis at Berkeley or a van full of Young Republicans at Macalester, if you need help picturing the sort of provincial hatred that sort of exercise would conjure forth.
The whole exercise of the “Soul Force Equality Ride” – vans full of gay guys from Minneapolis driving through small towns – seems entirely designed to publicize the heretofore-unknown concept that there are anti-gay bigots in small towns. “Expect more events like these as Soulforce and the Equality Ride directly confront the institutions that produce this type of hatred”, MinnMon writer Andy Birkey breathlessly intones in the piece Fecke links; one wonders (“trust but verify”) if Birkey has seen an itinerary.
If the incident was legit, then it’d seem they got exactly what the wanted; bigotry’s been exposed! Mission accomplished! (Unless they left a group of missionaries in Sioux Center to try to perform outreach and change the local hearts and minds. I mean – what other purpose was there besides driving in, confronting, taking pictures and leaving? I’d invite any “SoulForce Rider” to comment and discuss this).
But what has this incident to do with Christianity?
Other than as a breathless frame-up (presuming legitimacy) of small-town redneck bigots? Not a whole lot.
Fecke’s broad brush is a sweeping indictment of Christian bigotry in the civil arena. And aside from providing the intellectual and moral framework for the renaissance and liberal democracy itself, inciting and focusing anti-slavery sentiment in the United States and Europe, driving the entire notion of social welfare for most of American history, and providing the moral background for the entire civil rights movement (led by white as much as black churches), I guess you could say Christians sure are bigots.
But only if your brush is broad enough to avoid things like “facts” and “details”.
CORRECTION: Andy Birkey, not Matt. Not sure where that came from.
It only makes sense that Jeff would blame Christians.
If you look at one of busses, you’ll see the words, “God doesn’t love gays”.
It’s my experience that it’s either Christians or radical Jihadists that are always declaring who God does and doesn’t love and since were doing such a bang up job of fighting the Jihadists over there (so we don’t have to fight them here…) Well, that leaves the Christians.
The more one looks into the statements being made by the supposed “victims” in this story, the more it appears that the real victims were the trusting (foolhearty is a better word) administration of Dort college that allowed two busloads of “uptown’s finest” to invade their campus.
This same group (Soulforce) forced a confrontation several years ago on the campus of the University of St. Thomas. Despite the University’s very tolerant offer to meet with these people, they chose instead to assemble in a place most guaranteed to cause disruption.
The occassion was a meeting of a national group (which is an authentic Catholic apostolate) that has had success in helping people resist their homosexual impulses through the Church.
The Soulforce group mercilessly heckled this group….another fine, fine example of the left’s “tolerence”.
The Sioux City Journal has a story on this:
http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2007/03/09/news/local/16e4330038e6f4f4862572990016ccfa.txt
What, of course, wasn’t mentioned by the liberal bloggers is that Dordt took it upon themselves to clean the buses. Of course, what else wasn’t mentioned was that Dordt invited them on campus – and both sides were pleased with the trip despite this. Read Soulforce’s blogs on the trip — they’re more or less glowing with praise for Dordt College and the students. However, those little tidbits don’t exactly make the broad-brush work, do they?
Anyway, this crap shouldn’t happen, and I certainly don’t rule out bored, dumb kids from nearby high schools who figured out who the larges buses belonged to. I hope they get caught and enjoy the time in jail or doing community service.
For fun, read the cesspool of comments in the Sioux City Journal’s article at the bottom. Fecke’s stereotyping and bigotry are only the tip of this iceberg — except that he can spell has has a better grasp on the language.
Well, that leaves the Christians.
Or, to be accurate, your stereotype of them.
I did say, “It’s my experience” did I not?
Stereotypes don’t just appear out of the ether for no reason though.
I did say, “It’s my experience” did I not?
Yes, which was why I also noted that they were your steroetypes!
Stereotypes don’t just appear out of the ether for no reason though.
True. But that doesn’t necessarily excuse them.
The Nazis and the Klan had all kinds of “reasons” for their stereotypes, which didn’t just appear out of the ether as far as they were concerned either.
Every culture in the world stereotypes people who are “not like us” – indeed, in many/most of the world’s languages, the word for “person” or “human” becomes less accepting and more derogatory for “people/humans” more geographically and ethnically removed from them.
It’s not technicall “from the ether”, but it’s certainly human nature. Something that should be analyzed and dissected rather than used to shrug and excuse loathsome behavior.
Like all DFLers do.
Oh, damn…
Doug,
Allah doesn’t love gays either and yet I don’t hear anyone accusing Muslims of this.
The bottom line is that homosexuality is against the tenants of all three of the monotheistic religions. To blame this kind of thing SOLELY on Christians does indeed show a bias…an intolerance if you will…
LL
Mitch said,
“indeed, in many/most of the world’s languages, the word for “person” or “human” becomes less accepting and more derogatory for “people/humans” more geographically and ethnically removed from them.”
Which ironically led me to gradually question and ultimately abandon my Catholic / Christian practices and brought me to my current spiritual path which, according to my “Christian” family, is just this side of Satan worship.
Ironically, the big that you responded to – the word for “Human” diminishing in favor the farther from one’s own tribe a stranger hails – is true of many Native American languages.
LL,
I didn’t blame it SOLELY on Christians. I blamed it on Christians or radical Jihadists.
If I thought that there was a large population, or ANY population of Muslims in Sioux Center, maybe I would have suggested that as an option.
I can say with a fair degree of certainity that it wasn’t my religion since we actually honor gays and lesbians.
“trust but verify” is all good. far better than either “trust blindly” or “reject out of hand”.
Interestingly, the description here of Soulforce’s actions on St. Thomas reminds me a great deal of the “Reverend” Fred Phelps in that the actions are apparently designed to provoke a nasty (and potentially violent) response. Unfortunately, it should be pretty clear to everyone that this sort of thing causes only hate and mistrust.
Since that’s what Phelps wants, I can understand why he does it. I can’t understand why a group such as Soulforce would want it. Walls come down when both sides get humanized to each other, not when they become stereotypical parodies of each other.
I can say with a fair degree of certainity that it wasn’t my religion since we actually honor gays and lesbians.
Indigenous cultures around the world vary with, er, gay abandon as far as how they treat homosexuality.
You are Lakota, if memory serves? If I remember my cultural linguistics reading, Lakota is one of the languages whose word for “person” derogates people more and more, the farther from the home tribe/clan they hail.
So presumably your religion honors Lakota gays, as opposed to gay Arikara…
Again, presuming I remember it all correctly.
I noticed that the words & images defaced the vans don’t appear to have done in a hurry. Also they were painted on the windows. Very easy to clean off.
“Walls come down when both sides get humanized to each other, not when they become stereotypical parodies of each other. ”
Phaedrus – You hit the nail squarely on the head with this one. It’s a pity folks like Doug can grasp this.
Doug – rather than saying “It only makes sense that Jeff would blame Christians.
If you look at one of busses, you’ll see the words, “God doesn’t love gays”.
It would be wiser, and a lot less antagonistic to say something along the lines of what Phaedrus said….
Mitch, you’re right in the sense that the rituals I practice come primarily from the Lakota tradition but the broader ideology of honoring Winkte or two-souls-person extended beyond just the “Sioux”.
http://www.gender.org.uk/conf/trilogy/winkte.htm
As for what the Lakota did historically, the point is really not relevant unless you believe that a person should be held accountable for the actions of their ancestors. If you want to play that game, Christians should be condemned for burning witches.
For the record, the modern Lakota refer to all two legged’s as people. They refer to birds as winged people and animals with four legs are people. That goes for trees, rocks and dirt.
In fact, the whole concept of claiming to know what God thinks, likes or wants is absurd. The name for God in Lakota is Wakan Tanka which translates roughly as “great mystery”. To proclaim that a human would presume to know what God likes would expose that person as either a fraud or a fool.
Mitch, you’re right in the sense that the rituals I practice come primarily from the Lakota tradition but the broader ideology of honoring Winkte or two-souls-person extended beyond just the “Sioux”.
Well, duh.
As for what the Lakota did historically, the point is really not relevant unless you believe that a person should be held accountable for the actions of their ancestors.
Or every single one of their co-religionists? Like when you said “It’s my experience that it’s either Christians or radical Jihadists that are always declaring who God does and doesn’t love and since were doing such a bang up job of fighting the Jihadists over there (so we don’t have to fight them here…) Well, that leaves the Christians”
Paint overly broadly, much?
Because if that’s not overbroad, then it’s my experience that most people who practice Native American religions (and Buddhism) do it mainly to piss of their parents.
I mean, since gross stereotypes are OK and all that.
” . . . Christians should be condemned for burning witches.”
Surely, Doug, you mean condemned for burning people who were _not_ witches.
Mitch said,
“it’s my experience that most people who practice Native American religions (and Buddhism) do it mainly to piss of their parents.”
Wow!?! Both of them?
I guess I can’t argue with that.
By the way, most people I know who practice Native American religions are Native Americans and the wasicu that I do know, including myself are in their 40’s, or their 50’s 60’s and 70’s. I don’t think any of us really care what our parents think about our spiritual practices.
By the way, nearly all of the men in my circle are veterans of the Korean or Vietnam wars and turned to these ways because of drug and alcohol addictions.
Yes, Doug, I do in fact believe that, but most of the followers of “Native Spirituality” I’ve met (since leaving North Dakota) are goyim – patchouli-reeking white kids.
Just pointing out the complete lunacy of your stereotype.
Mitch said,
“Just pointing out the complete lunacy of your stereotype.”
And surely you do understand that my use of the stereotype was snark.
To be serious, I do think that a segment of the Christian community has done the entirety of Christianity a disservice by their excessively loud moralizing, judging and patronizing of those they consider non-believers.
And no Mitch, I don’t believe all Christians are inherently homophobic anymore than I believe that all Republicans are evil but I would be willing to bet that whoever wrote that stuff on the bus identifies themselves as a Christian.
Oh and Mitch, you may be interested in this as it relates to the other thread about protesting the protesters.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/world/middleeast/13alcohol.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
I spend about 2 days a month at the VA dealing with Veterans who have drug, alcohol, PTSD and TBI’s.
The people I work with inside the VA are concerned that they are not equipped to handle the problems they are starting to see. Further, the funding for TBI’s is getting cut and there aren’t enough qualified caseworkers to deal with the number of guys coming back with serious psychological disorders.
That’s directly related to the administrations failures Mitch and there is no one to blame but the President.
Mitch said: “patchouli-reeking white kids.”
Just so I can keep up on my right-wing stereotypes, what exactly is patchouli?
It is an incense oil. I can’t really say what it smells like because I don’t know that I’ve ever smelled it but I’m guessing it smells musky or really earthy – kinda like dirt.
About 15 or 20 years ago, it was really popular in the Twin cities along with clove cigarettes.
Prior to that, it was popular among the recent college graduates who’s only job prospects included working for the Clean Water Action Committee.
A Gov’t employee who thinks his department’s underfunded! Who knew there was such a thing? Don’t worry kid. You got Keith Ellison in your corner now!
Thanks, Doug. Is that something one applies to one’s person? Or is it for masking the smell of burning cannabis?
Terry said,
“A Gov’t employee who thinks his department’s underfunded”
It’s the VA Terry. You know? The veterans administration? They provide services for veterans? And when the funding gets cut they can’t provide the services that the Veterans need?
I thought all Republicans actually supported the troops? Guess that yellow ribbon on your car is just for decoration eh?
What makes you think that I have a yellow ribbon on my car, Doug? And once again you’ve called me a republican. I am a registered independent because the republican party does not represent my outlook.
For a guy that knows everything you make a lot of mistakes.
If you were a thinking guy you might reflect on the many mistakes you’ve made concerning the other commenters here (you called me an arms profiteer at one point) and wonder what other delusions you harbor about people who view public policy differently than you do.
And look at this here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/interactives/budget06/budget06Agencies.html
Terry,
Sorry, I should have said, “I thought all Conservatives actually supported the troops” although as I’ve commented lately, a lot people who claim to be conservative are anything but conservative.
My bad.
As for your whining that I mischaracterized you, I would invite you to go read what your buddies have said about me based on my comment that I left the corporate world to get a job in retail so I could be closer to home and spend more time with my kids.
When in Rome, as they say.
To your post about the VA Budget?
Let’s look at what I posted on March 12th, 2007…
“…VA are concerned that they are not equipped to handle the problems they are starting to see. Further, the funding for TBI’s is getting cut and there aren’t enough qualified caseworkers…”
Now Terry. Tell me the date that the article you cited was published…
Nevermind, I’ll tell you. It was published February 2005.
I would detail for you just how dumb that was but why bother. I’m sure a thinking guy like you can figure it out by yourself.
Doug, This spreadsheet from whitehouse.gov (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2005/sheets/hist05z2.xls) shows the VA Dept’s budget was 47.5 billion in 2001. The Wash post story I linked to above shows that Bush requested 70.8 billion for the VA in the 2006 budget. That’s an increase of 67% in 5 years.
Only someone with a serious case of BDS could see funding for the VA rise 67% in half a decade and conclude that Bush is short changing the VA.
First of all, read what I wrote Terry.
I said they’re seeing that they’re not equipped to handle the problems they are starting to see.
Second, I said they don’t have enough caseworkers to process all of the claims or work with the number of bodies that come in through the door.
You go down to the Mpls VA Hospital, stand in the lobby and tell me that the 67% increase has made a dent.
I did read what you wrote. You said:
And I said that government agencies and their employees always claim that they are underfunded and then I produced evidence to show that the VA’s budget has increased by 2/3 since 2001.
This doc (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf) says there have been less then 12,000 WIA not RTD in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The increase in the VA budget since 2001 in a bit under 24 billion dollars. That works out to about $2,000,000 per WIA who was unable to return to duty.
You respond by saying it’s not enough and that Bush is responsible.
I think you should ask your boss where all the money is going. Or maybe make a sacrifice and volunteer to work for free since this issue is so important to you.
Your complaint about TBI funding cuts is echoed here, BTW.
http://www.nsm88.com/articles/veterans_administration_budget_cuts.html
Doug, 67% increase since 2001 == 2 million dollars per WIA that has not been RTD. That’s increase. For comparison purposes I have a lifetime limit on my health insurance of $1,000,000.
I suggest you talk to your bosses to find out where the hell the money is going cuz until you can explain why $2 million per WIA is not enough for rehab I doubt you’ll get anymore.
Terry said,
“For comparison purposes I have a lifetime limit on my health insurance of $1,000,000.”
Great! Now, let’s subtract the salary for the doctors you go to visit, the nurse who takes your blood pressure, the lighting and heating bill for the clinic, the salary for the person who takes your appointment, the woman who submits your insurance claims, transportation costs from the group home you live in to the Hospital, the cost of your meds, (I have one client who’s monthly med cost is $1700.00) The cost for your prosthesis – lets just say the cost is one arm and a leg ok?, Next, let’s subtract the cost of the janitorial service that cleans the clinic, the guy who plows the parking lot, the cost for office supplies – check the price of paper lately Terry?, Now let’s subtract the salary for the caseworker who coordinates your care team and we can’t forget – you just got back from Iraq and are suffering from PTSD and you’ve been self medicating yourself for a year with street drugs and alcohol so we’re going to subtract the cost to send you to a VA sponsored Drug and Alcohol rehabilitation facility.
How much you got left of that $1,000,000 to pay for basic medical treatment Terry?
Please Terry, put up or shut up. Call your Senator and demand that they freeze funding for Vets. After all, the President’s given a 67% increase since 2001 right? I mean really, what else do these pussies want right?
By the way, before you take my words out of context, maybe I need to tell you I’m being sarchastic.
When your done, make sure to report back to the class how that call went ok?
Cry me a river, Doug. I know damn well what health care costs. The VA has its own cabinet chair. So do the teachers. So do the farmers. All of them demand more money, now.
Public policy is the art of keeping the social contract honored by all parties while distributing scarce resources. The VA is awash in money. Please try to spend it more wisely. The VA budget has increased by 67%, more than 25 BILLION dollars, over five years and you whine about a 14 million dollar program having its budget cut to 9 million. This cut is less than 1/10th of 1% of the VA’s budget. Geez. The budget for the whole program was only 14 million to start with. Write a letter to the editor or something if it bothers you that much, but for for the sake of your own sanity you must realize this is not a result of evil Bush screwing over the country to make his buddies rich.
Terry muttered,
“The VA is awash in money. Please try to spend it more wisely.”
The defense department is awash in money. Please try to spend it more wisely.
“you whine about a 14 million dollar program having its budget cut to 9 million.”
Maybe you should stick to poetry because math isn’t your real strength. Here, let me help you out… If you INCREASE the number of people who get injured, you should INCREASE the funding for treating those people. Get it? Further, if you increase the number of people who may potentially be injured, you should plan for it.
I can understand why this is difficult for you to understand considering the way Mr. Bush planned and executed the wars in Iraq anf Afghanistan. Planning and setting realistic budgets doesn’t seem to be a real strong Republican, oops, conservative quality.
“for for the sake of your own sanity you must realize this is not a result of evil Bush screwing over the country to make his buddies rich.”
I never said that. For for the sake of your own credibility you should stop trying ascribe words to me that I naver said.