“…And I’m Here To Help…”
By Mitch Berg
Joe Doakes from Como Park emails:
College costs too much so students take loans. But there are no jobs so graduates can’t repay the loans. But the federal government made the loans so they cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.
An alternative is for private investors to offer to pay your college in return for your promise to work for them in the future. Some already are doing this.
Senator Marco Rubio (R-Fla) wants national legislation to legitimize the program and add safeguards.
Cripes, you can’t even trust Republicans to keep their greasy mitts to themselves. Look, Marco, you’re a US Senator. The US Government student loan system is busted. You are one of 534 people in the world who can do anything about it. But no, you’ve got your eye on “helping” private investors and students use an alternative arrangement. They wouldn’t need an alternative arrangement in the first place, if you were doing your job and fixing the busted system.
Joe Doakes
The idea – investors “investing” in students in exchange for future earnings – is a fascinating one.
The Fed’s involvement will quickly make it a hopeless mess.
April 24th, 2014 at 6:46 am
Ok, Rubio has just dropped a place or two on my list of 2016 hopefuls with this.
April 24th, 2014 at 7:46 am
College is way, way, way, way overpriced.
http://bit.ly/1hoq9SQ
If you got a history or an english degree, and it was fairly priced, would it matter if you had a job driving taxi or whatever?
We are getting dumber and dumber and education is way overpriced.
April 24th, 2014 at 8:25 am
An English degree was of incalculable value to me. But I’m sure that doesn’t translate to today.
April 24th, 2014 at 8:37 am
There is no reason that the last two years of high school couldn’t be the first two years of college.
April 24th, 2014 at 9:20 am
Two years? Three or four. Google some of the 8th Grade Final Exams from the 1900’s. It’s astonishing what they expected students to know, that we don’t now.
April 24th, 2014 at 9:22 am
World War 2 was won by people who had an average of eight years of schooling.
Not that you need a BA to be an infantryman or load depth charges or fix engines – but an eighth grade education back when was worth more than 12 years is today.
And kids are still that smart; look at some of your home-school, charter and alt-school kids who fly through “high school” and “college” by the time they’re 20.
April 24th, 2014 at 10:27 am
TFS is absolutely correct; college is way overpriced. That is the problem that needs correcting. Loans only make it worse by creating the idea that education is affordable if enough loans are taken out. If so, dilaudid cures stomach cancer. It’s further exacerbated by the idea that everyone should have a college education. No they shouldn’t.
In some cases the last couple of years of HS are the first couple semesters of college. At least if the kid is able to take part in the HS programs that allow the student to take college credits before graduation, which can later be applied towards a formal degree program. Plus, it’s free. The school district pays, we don’t. Can’t beat that …
April 24th, 2014 at 10:34 am
When a republican’s knee-jerk response is MORE GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS to fix the problem – we have a problem.
April 24th, 2014 at 10:50 am
A friend of mine was going to Dakota Tech to study diesel mechanics a couple of years ago. The Steigler-Cat folks come through there regularly to look for guys who are doing well in the program and seem to have a grasp on things because they have a lot of positions to fill, especially with the work in North Dakota. They offered my friend an internship where they’d pay a big chunk of his DTC tuition and put him to work 4-6 hours a day in one of their shops (at a good hourly rate) while he finished his schooling. He would then have a full-time position with them when he finished, with a couple of options on where he wanted to go (to the oil fields or to stay local to fill in the gaps of all the mechanics that went to oil fields). It’s worked out well for all concerned; he got out of school with minimal debt and some money in his pocket and has been working 40 hours a week ever since.
So, a private business identified a need, where it could find people to meet that need, and then offered a mutually beneficial contract that gave both parties a market advantage. No government involvement, except to collect the income taxes.
April 24th, 2014 at 11:02 am
Night: Why would colleges want to engage in productive enterprises when they can just dupe 18-year-old’s into believing there’s a future in European Art History or existential poetry?
April 24th, 2014 at 11:41 am
I always tell this story when people ask me why I have such disdain for the public school system:
In 1993, my future wife had recently graduated with an education degree, and was student teaching at what is now Park Center HS in Brooklyn Center. She was teaching 11th grade social studies. Over the course of one semeseter, they had a large project spanning the semester, with weekly work assignments and a weekly essay that was due. It was worth 150 points. *10* of those 150 points were awarded if the student used colored pens/pencils or crayons (!) to decorate their manila folder, instead of regular pencil or black/blue ball point pen. Each week they had to write an essay. The minimum length of the essay was three sentences. In ELEVENTH grade. We decided we didn’t want our children doomed to having only menial jobs because they lacked the educational foundation to learn and grow.
Granted, I went to a private school (on scholarship, my parents were not rich, or even middle class), but I was having to do that level of work in 3rd grade. My 11th grade book reports – which were assigned about once a month – had to be 3 to 5 pages of regular lined notebook paper. My 11th grade social studies papers had to be at least 5, probably more. I hand wrote most of my essays, as most home computers were still somewhat exotic and still rather comparatively expensive back then, and hardly anyone had one. Some special ones needed to be typed and I used the typewriter at my Mom’s office for those (her boss had spent over $10K on a huge IBM PC XT with an 8088 processor, TWO floppy drives and an HP Laserjet that was about $3-4K of that $10K, but I was forbidden from ever touching it). Of course, back then my typing speed was measured in words per hour, so that sucked.
Also, as I became more politically aware, and have learned what sort of liberal indoctrination centers todays’ public schools have become, that even further hardened my resolve against them.
April 24th, 2014 at 11:41 am
Colleges are in the business of extorting money from the public, not in the education business anymore. How else would you explain prolifiration of liberal arts degrees suitable only to line a birdcage and nothing else? And, having a daughter currently attending UoW Madison, we have a firsthand exeprtience with their “advisors” more interested in making sure undergrad experience lasts 5 or 6 years, instead of graduating on time in 4. No, she will graduate in 4 and then 3 more years to get a doctorate degree in a useful, in-demand profession.
Colleges have to be reformed from within and ALL “studies” degrees expunged with extreme prejudice. All of a sudden, you don’t have to support 1/2 of the profs keen on making sure there are enough GBLT “studies” graduates manning Occupy Wallstreet idiots, and your tuition costs will go down. A miracle!
And why the heck is everyone touting that education, however useless (see “studies”) is a way out of “poverty”? A solution to “everything”? Education, education, education… that’s all you hear from both left AND right. Heard that yesterday on Up’and’at’Em and wanted to throw up. How about some hard work ethic in anything you do – anything usefull, in demand you do? There is nothing useful in GBLT studies – nothing! But there is plenty of demand in trades… PLENTY!
Adn last but not least, if Goobernment gets into the “regulating” or “running” education for jobs program, based on past history, we will end up with a tax on ALL business that will be used to pay to educate 10 “studies” majors for one useful degree. Wanna place bets?
Ok, one more thing, since I am already on my soapbox – why the heck, other than extortion, do advanced degrees require undergraduate? What value is there in an undegrad degree if you are going to medical, or dental school? You learn everyting anew anyway! It is not done elsewhere in the world and their doctors are doing just fine, thankyouverymuch. As a matter of fact, they spend more time on specialization, making them better in their chosen field.
Ok, sorry for the long screed, but there was a lot of ground to cover…
April 24th, 2014 at 11:43 am
Plus, it’s free. The school district pays, we don’t.
In other words, we still do.
April 24th, 2014 at 11:45 am
Bill, my daughter went from a private school to a very advanced charter school in 6th grade and slacked off for a year while everybody else who came from public schools caught up.
April 24th, 2014 at 11:48 am
Night, that is a point I make about what we are subsidizing. Minnesota employers need welders, diesel mechanics, accountants and doctors.
How many businesses have said “we want to expand in Minnesota, but can’t find enough qualified people with Gay-Lesbian-Transgendered studies majors”?
My idea? Subsidize real majors to keep loans to a minimum, and charge more for hobby majors. Maybe base it how many people get jobs in their fields soon after graduating. That would also be a free market approach. If a bullshit studies major is more expensive than a sheet metal program, then that will help balance the supply of students in each.
April 24th, 2014 at 1:19 pm
Before the land grant colleges, liberal arts were intended to education a person who did not need to work. It was a finishing school. Educated people who needed to or wanted to, went on to medical or law school. Everyone else did apprenticeships or lived off of family wealth. That all changed with the land grant colleges of the mid-nineteenth century.
The proliferation of “studies” programs was purposely intended to bring non-white-males into the power structure of universities.
Go read the comments on the stories at the chronicle of higher education website: https://chronicle.com/section/Home/5
These people are out of touch academics and wannabe out of touch academics. They really believe that you, the taxpayer, should fund a position so they can teach your kids to hate you. They justify their worthless vocation by saying that the real importance of their job is to be a social critic, i.e., to be a liberal and to spread liberal ideas. They judge you, you cannot judge them. How could you? Where is your degree from?
My response is that I can judge them because I didn’t spend eight years getting a degree that qualified me for part-time work at starvation wages.
April 24th, 2014 at 1:44 pm
Mingo: The most misunderstood passage in the Bible is “judge not lest ye be judged.” Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t judge, means we should judge by God’s measure – but the Left always construes this to mean Christians are intolerant.
April 24th, 2014 at 2:20 pm
Bill C: Exactly my point, but there are likely some who truly believe that it is free. And for them, I guess it is …
Night Writer: The circumstances that you describe, under which an employer selects the most promising students to nurture, might be a great way of grading or “passing” students.
While anything for-profit might appall liberal educationally-oriented institutions, The “Vo-Techs” might be a bit more results oriented and less self esteem oriented. That is, perhaps they could adopt such criteria as the “final exam” for each step of the program. Each student who can snag a “sponsorship” from a recognized employer in the field of study is eligible to move on. Those unable to do so would be asked to leave.
While I can imagine many problems with such a system, most of those problems are systematic in nature (fairness, self-esteem, quotas, etc.) and could be eliminated if some hard truths could be accepted.
April 24th, 2014 at 4:22 pm
It’s worth noting that the “liberal arts” used to mean grammar, logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music–and suffice it to say I’ve met very few liberal arts grads who are conversant in any of these areas. (exhibit A: Dog Gone) And the point wasn’t that you’d have a useless degree, but rather that you’d have an education you could apply to anything.
And how to fix education today? Well, getting government out of the business of funding it, or at least linking loans and grants to outcomes, would be a great start. (in other words; if nobody in Billybob studies ever gets a job or manages to repay the student loan, the government does not issue loans or grants to students in billybob studies)
April 24th, 2014 at 4:47 pm
At this point I should mention that I have a liberal arts degree. My diploma actually says “liberal arts”. I got it from the University of Hawaii at Hilo, which is not quite ivy league:
It is a feeder school for the UH law program, so I’ve got that going for me.
April 24th, 2014 at 5:12 pm
It’s worth noting that the “liberal arts” used to mean grammar, logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music–and suffice it to say I’ve met very few liberal arts grads who are conversant in any of these areas
My college paid lip service to “liberal arts” in the ’80s. I sucked at math then and now (geometry less so), but the rest of it I pretty much got.
BA English, minors in History and German (and, almost, Computer Science). And I work in IT.
But I know – it’s a different world out there.
April 24th, 2014 at 7:04 pm
NW, the son of one of my friends was taking welding at Dak Tech. Ziegler Cat in Bloomington knew all of the instructors pretty well and would ask if there were any upcoming grads that had some talent. His son ended up getting a job with Ziegler right out of school for $41K to start. He’s been there a couple of years, so he’s now making about $56K now (with OT), has a house and a couple of snowmobiles.
Now here’s something hot off the presses. My son was expecting a $540 refund on his overage of withholding. He owed $800 to the feds on his student loan and was frequently late on his payments. Well, he got a letter today that said they kept his refund to pay toward his loan. There are going to be a lot of pissed off people running around! Ain’t it great?!
April 24th, 2014 at 7:41 pm
The problem with a vo-tech education is that it is too specialized, and you can’t predict the future.
You spend two years becoming a machinist, and then manufacturing is off-shored. Wages fall.
You spend two years learning to do plumbing, and they drop licensing requirements and open the borders. Wages fall.
April 25th, 2014 at 5:29 am
It’s worth noting that the “liberal arts” used to mean grammar, logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music–and suffice it to say I’ve met very few liberal arts grads who are conversant in any of these areas. (exhibit A: Dog Gone) And the point wasn’t that you’d have a useless degree, but rather that you’d have an education you could apply to anything.
You can learn about all those things at a liberal arts college, but you have to chart your own course. And, as always, you need to make a distinction between what you are taught and what you actually learn.
April 25th, 2014 at 5:49 am
“The problem with a vo-tech education is that it is too specialized, and you can’t predict the future.”
That may be so, but exactly the same can be said of almost all occupations for which 4 year degrees are the table stakes. Even if machinist or plumbing wages fall, you are still left with a useful real-world skill that can be applied in a wide variety of circumstances. Renaissance poetry…. not so much.
April 25th, 2014 at 8:03 am
This is a great thread.
I always wondered why Obama didn’t wipe out the shortage in skilled trades with a wave of his hand back in 2009 if he’s so enamored of Soviet central planning. Well, guess what? Tennessee is doing it right now. Free tuition for anyone that wants to learn any level of skilled trade. The four year collages are freaking.
April 25th, 2014 at 8:10 am
Mitch and anyone else:
Here is my question.
When I look at twitter, I am terrified of the ignorance of history, math, statistics, and economics. No wonder liberals distract with shiny objects and make people believe that can get something for nothing. What do we do about that?
Furthermore, as a heavy consumer of psychotherapy, I really think literature is often the best way to convey ideas. This needs to be appreciated.
What do we do about that?
I think college is just over priced and they need to teach it like they did 40 years ago. That is the problem. Get the price down and let people graduate in three years unless they are getting a technical skill like accounting or something. Who needs instructor taught electives?
April 25th, 2014 at 9:18 am
My DTC friend also started off at a very nice salary, and the skills he learned provide a good foundation for knowing how to fix other things so he can adapt as the market evolves.
As for my family, my youngest is one of those home-schooled kids who whipped through college and earned her BA at age 20. Yeah, an English major isn’t the most marketable, but she has tremendous skills and vision, plus a diligent and self-motivated approach that served her well and also set a foundation for future success. We used the Post-Secondary program available to high school students in MN up to age 18 to pick up credits in classes that are hard to take by yourself, like French, Photography and Drama, but the bulk of her credits were earned through the College Plus program that provides a coach and a study program where you do the work and then take the CLEP test for that subject and earn credits for the class. Thomas Edison State College accepts those credits and confers the degree. Not “Ivy” but the work was rigorous and challenging, as were the tests. Now she’s ready to apply the knowledge and discipline she’s gained – and the total cost to us was in the low five-figures.
April 25th, 2014 at 9:32 am
TFS – big subject on the NARN on Sunday.
That’s right, Sunday.
April 25th, 2014 at 10:13 am
mnbikebubba: Exactly. People who can do things, like those who learn a useful trade, will always be able to sell, trade, or barter the skills they have.
People who think things will have a harder time of it when times are tough; who’ll trade you a brick of .22LR for a well-written mission statement? The thinkers will always be the customers of the doers, formally or informally.
This is the strength of immigrants and illegal aliens. They can do things and are willing to get their hands dirty for short-term low wages. However, the more we use them, the more we will need them, and then the more they will charge. Think they’ll need to hire someone to write their mission statement? Better be bi-lingual …
April 25th, 2014 at 11:42 am
Night – wow.
I think we’ll see a LOT more of that kind of thing. Can’t happen soon enough.
(And I’m one of the people who thinks he got way more than his money’s worth ouf my BA in English. That may be worth a blog post).
April 25th, 2014 at 12:08 pm
mnbubba wrote:
That may be so, but exactly the same can be said of almost all occupations for which 4 year degrees are the table stakes. Even if machinist or plumbing wages fall, you are still left with a useful real-world skill that can be applied in a wide variety of circumstances. Renaissance poetry…. not so much.
If you’ve got a BA, there is always grad school. A good B.A. will teach you to read, write, analyze arguments, know the limits of human knowledge, and so forth. An A.S. in plumbing? Not really.
But all of that could be taught in High School.
When I took Geography at the local community college, many of the students couldn’t identify major land masses on a world map, and didn’t know the difference between World War I and World War II, or the years they were fought. These were all 20-something guys who chose geography as an elective because they thought they knew a lot about it.
April 25th, 2014 at 3:56 pm
They need to get the price of college way down and teach it honestly, per Powhatan Mingo’s last post.
It’s about developing your mind and not being ignorant.
I get that we need more people in the trades and the remuneration is going to be way better for most, but I find this elitism that some people shouldn’t go to college very nauseating.
It’s overpriced for a bunch of criminally stupid reasons and they need to dump a whole bunch of stupid courses and departments.
The excess fixed overhead and labor costs at these places is going to be a real bitch to fix. All funded by student debt. Terrible.
April 25th, 2014 at 5:30 pm
I find this elitism that some people shouldn’t go to college very nauseating
What i find nauseating is a bunch of GBLT graduates sucking off the dole… Just because College is there, does not mean you should attend it. You should only attend it if you intend to do something with your life! Very elitist, that!
April 25th, 2014 at 5:44 pm
I’m not MNbubba–no offense, but we’re not the same person–but I tend to agree with his unease at votech schools. All too often, they move to area A because of publicity just in time for the market to collapse–witness “Microsoft Certification” and such. Engineers see a lot of the same thing–I remember seeing, even back in 1987, the huge increase in the # of majors with great unease. Some have worked out great–computer engineering–others like aeronautical, quite the roller coaster ride.
Learn to think, you can pick up a trade in a hurry and profit while the getting is good. Don’t learn to think, you’re always going to be getting that certification just in time for the market to crash. Get a major with “studies” in the name? God help you.
April 25th, 2014 at 7:04 pm
justplainangry:
You aren’t contradicting anything I said in this thread. Powhatan Mingo explained perfectly what is supposed to go on.