Incremental

Joe Doakes from Como Park emails:

One problem with gun control is over-breadth. To keep firearms out of North Minneapolis, we must ban them statewide, even nationwide and perhaps worldwide, or else they’ll just trickle back in as people move around.

Maybe the problem is freedom of travel? That doesn’t appear anywhere in the Constitution or the amendments, it’s a right invented by the Supreme Court and the early cases dealt with travel Between states. But what about travel Within a single state? Can we limit that?

Perhaps Minneapolis could impose reasonable restrictions on travel into or out of North Minneapolis? Close off all but a few streets, set up a checkpoint and search everyone coming into the North Minneapolis Sterile Zone for ugly guns and high-capacity magazines. That would create a safe and peaceful Gun Free Zone where it’s most needed but still allow people in rural Minnesota to keep firearms for hunting and self-defense. Nizel George would not have died in vain.

Reasonable restrictions on a right that’s not even mentioned in the Constitution. What could possibly be wrong with that?

Joe Doakes

Como Park

Saint Paul could use the same idea – a wall around the city, with a fee to get out - for economic development!

The Constitution doesn’t mention anything about “no walls around cities!”

41 thoughts on “Incremental

  1. Forget it. The Doakes ‘internal passport’ scheme would limit the ability of pols to move voters where they are needed on election day.

  2. Joe Doakes should submit this as an editorial to the Strib under the heading: A Modest Proposal. I daresay he understands the nature of Swift’s satire better than the author of the commentary under that title last month.

  3. Joe, you make such fundamental errors in thinking.

    You make the conservative mistake of assuming that gun problems are somehow only the problem of those urban and mostly black areas.

    The reason for statewide and national gun control is not too broad. The reason we need that kind of gun control is that the problems we have are not unique or specific to certain neighborhoods. Rather they are a chronic problem with guns everywhere.

    The shooting that wounded two and killed a nine year old boy took place in Oakdale, a reasonably affluent suburb of St. Paul in Washington County.

    The mass shooting in 2012 at a sign company took place in a Minneapolis suburb that was not any part of North Minneapolis.

    The other mass shooting, at the Red Lake School was not in North Minneapolis either. LOTS of shootings, both deliberate and accidental, occur all over the metro, all over the state, all over the nation.

    What DOES work is to limit the guns that fall into the hands of criminals, and to limit those guns that start out as legal purchases from being used illegally. One study showed that 40% of guns used in felonies came from family and friends – not were stolen from family and friends, but were obtained with their consent. Another 10%-20% were from straw purchases.

    What works in areas that are high crime is a systematic intensive policing, not anything like what you propose. But the problems with guns is like the problem with domestic violence – it is not limited to any ethnic or economic demographic; it affects everyone.

    And that is why we need to renew the Violence Against Women Act, because more violence is done by men to women than the other way around (although there are certainly abusive women too, but not nearly as many).

    If Joe submits this half-baked thinking to the Strib, if they print it at all, he will be accused – quite properly – of racial bias and of ignoring the problems of other areas with guns.

  4. Lessee…..about a dozen murders in the past decade outside Minneapolis, several hundred in the same time IN Minneapolis. Doggone, maybe you’d do well to revisit the “Pareto Principle”.

    And we’d be building a wall around the city…..would we rename it “Berlin” then? :^)

  5. And that is why we need to renew the Violence Against Women Act, because more violence is done by men to women than the other way around
    This statement contains many errors in thinking.
    There is no good reason for spousal abuse to be considered a federal matter.
    Blacks assault and rob whites more than whites assault and rob blacks. Does this mean that we need a Violence Against Whites Act?

  6. DG accusing someone of fundamental errors in thinking is even wittier than Joe’s satire, and it was artful how she worked in so many “half-baked” memes as well. Too bad that two half-baked (or more) memes don’t equal one coherent point. They are logically undigestible which makes them easier to regurgitate. It’s what the Strib readers have become accustomed to; they’d little more know what to do with a fully-formed argument than a baby receiving a serving of chateaubriand.

  7. Same scatter-shot approach from DG.
    It’s similar to arguing
    a) More poor people commit commit crimes because they are poor, not because they are bad!
    b) Black people are poor because of racism!
    c) Black people do not commit more crimes!

  8. DG, who still has outstanding homework due on the Cornish bill, once again illustrates how little of value is taught at St Olaf – $100+k and this is what you get – her parents should ask for their money back.

  9. Yea, kel. I’m still waiting for her reaction once her beloved DemocRAT legislators regulate her puppy mill into oblivion!

  10. For reference, the original VAWA demonstrated something very interesting; women were close to as likely to abuse their romantic partners as men were. Another wrong premiss by Doggone. For that matter, receiving a welfare check or being a single parent corresponds really well to domestic violence.

    And since we’re dealing with wrong premises, let’s deal with the “40% of criminals get their guns from family or friends.” Well, yes. Some of them get them from family and friends who have no idea they’re criminals, and hence the background checks Doggone proposes would have no affect. Some of them get guns from family and friends who know they’re criminals and don’t care, and hence “requiring” a background check would do squat as well.

    Reality of the matter–here’s that Pareto Principle again–is that murder DOES track with certain demographics, as does domestic violence, and therefore it’s insane to impair the freedom of all to deal with the misdeeds of a few.

  11. “limit those guns that start out as legal purchases from being used illegally.”

    Gotta hand it to Mongrel Cur….just when you think it’s reached to the bottom of it’s supply of stupid, it pulls out a reserve.

  12. There is no good reason for spousal abuse to be considered a federal matter.

    I say we bring back VAWA and enforce it with drone strikes. If you’re gonna go federal, go federal.

  13. On it’s empty little corner of the blogosphere, Mongrel Cur opined:

    “We are losing 10 times the number annually of the number of people killed at the World Trade Center. That number is unacceptable.”

    I decided to FACTCHECK that.

    Surprisingly, according to the CDC, Mongrel Cur has underestimated it’s statistics by a factor of 100…

    “In 2009, 784,507 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 48 reporting areas. The abortion rate for 2009 was 15.1 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years and the abortion ratio was 227 abortions per 1,000 live births.”

    http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/Abortion.htm

    Unacceptable? It’s genocide…glad to see Mongrel Cur has grown a moral.

  14. In a truly mind-numbing display of idiocy DG wrote (yes, display of idiocy is implied by the “DG wrote”, but bear with me here):

    And that is why we need to renew the Violence Against Women Act, because more violence is done by men to women than the other way around (although there are certainly abusive women too, but not nearly as many).

    Are you really that clueless DG? You must exist in a completely sterile liberal cocoon to believe that. All the studies show that men and women abuse each other at nearly the same rate. It is, however, the women who report it since the stigma attached to a man reporting it is so great. Even then, a whopping 40% of the violence in a domestic situation is reported as woman against man, despite the cops viewing men to report domestic violence as pathetic.

    Just so you know, the best statistics are the man strikes the first blow about 27% of the time, the woman 25% of the time, and the rest mutual. Given the error bars on the data, the results are indistinguishable between the sexes.

    For someone who likes to brag on how liberals “know things” you sure don’t.

  15. Interesting demographics of who commits, who the victim is, and where the crime is committed.

    https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/mnjis/Documents/2011%20State%20Crime%20Book.pdf

    Without counting Minneapolis which has much less than 10% of the States population our criminal homicide rate would drop by over 1/3rd. Also 40% of the known perps were black compared to 35% white.

    DG you can say whatever you like but, year after year Minneapolis leads the State in murder rate.

  16. half-baked (or more) memes don’t equal one coherent point.

    Last time i checked, two half-baked memes equaled one-quarter meme.

  17. The guy in Oakdale, yes, its the guns fault. This man was perfectly normal. If the gun wouldn’t have made him randomly shoot at people, he would have been home playing with his kids, or perhaps would have joined the Salvation Army and would have been volunteering for them that day. Or maybe he would have been involved with the Boy Scouts adn would have been teaching the kids something that evening. But instead he saw that gun and thought to himself “screw the homeless shelter tonight. They can feed themselves. This gun wants me to pick it up and go out and shoot at cars”.

  18. Thanks for commenting, Dog Gone. It’s been so long I feared you didn’t love me anymore.

    As to your interesting yet unattributed studies, I don’t doubt you correctly re-typed the press release from whatever gun control organization is your source, but I’d like to see the source data to decide whether “family,” “friends” and “straw purchases” were euphemisms for “fellow criminals” because that’s exactly how I’d picture Nizel George’s killer obtaining his weapon and nothing in any of the DFL’s present limitation, confiscation and background check proposals would do anything to prevent it.

    As for my proposal being racisssss, ask yourself this: which person evidences they care more about the safety of Black people living in North Minneapolis – the guy who proposes to physically prevent guns from coming into the neighborhood, or the gal who proposes more words on paper while leaving the neighborhood gangsters fully armed?

  19. “The reason we need that kind of gun control is that the problems we have are not unique or specific to certain neighborhoods.”

    Obviously in the course of your fact checking DG you missed the Mpls Shots Fired Maps on Mpls’s own website. Tell me again that the problems don’t pertain to a large degree in certain neighborhoods. I’m curious when the Shot Fired Report Program will instituted in cities like Anoka, Rochester, Mankato, Albert Lea, etc…..hmmmmm
    DG go lay by your dish, and by the way…………PFFT!!!

  20. chuck,
    between Wusthof, Shun, and Berti I have over 36 Very sharp knives in the house and the cacophony they make when they all start chanting in unison “I’m Sharp! Lets cut something” is enough to drive a person to distraction – imagine what its like when the hammers and the guns chime in.
    Its sad that DG is so ignorant she actually believes that guns are volitional instruments.

  21. I’ve got to correct jpmn here; if Minneapolis (about 8% of the population at 387,000 people) were to have the state average murder rate (about 0.8/100k) excepting Minneapolis, murders last year would have dropped by 28, or about 40%, not 30%. More or less, the murder rate in Minneapolis is, at 31/400k or about 8/100k, about ten times the rate of the rest of the state.

    Now if indeed one district of the city is predominant, the disparity is even worse.

    Looking at the data, it is friends and acquaintances killing/getting killed, and the dominant issues are relational (lovers’ quarrels, etc..) and felony. It’s not an issue of guns, it’s an issue of culture.

  22. Ah, bubbasan, but you have to remember, in DG’s demented world all cultures are equally valid and equally valuable(*) so criticism of the culture is verboten. Thus, her demented, illogical, and unfeasible “solutions” to the problem.

    (*) White, Republicans, and libertarians excepted, of course. Those guys deserve to be repressed.

  23. Bubbasan, when I’m not terribly interested in looking up things like Minneapolis population figures I estimate and round up or down in the direction my opponent would like. The numbers should indicate that there is something terribly wrong in Minneapolis and more specifically with young black males in Minneapolis.

    On the other hand what these numbers show is that if you live outside of Minneapolis, don’t involve yourself in drug deals or gang activity the chance of being murdered is next to zero.

  24. Hey Doggy;

    Yesterday, over 84.5 MILLION legal gun owners in the U.S. like me, went to work and did nothing with their guns. Of course, I’m sure that somewhere in liberat land, a bunch of guns decided to unionize to become another protected class.

  25. Nerdbert: quite right.

    jpmn: :^)

    One minor modification; your chance of being murdered is next to zero if (a) you don’t hang around criminals and (b) you stay out of “out of wedlock romantic situations.” Seems that about 40% of murders are the former, and 40% the latter, with the remainder in doubt.

  26. Hundreds of murders in north Minneapolis?

    Got a source for that claim?

    In point of fact, there is no indication that ‘out of wedlock’ situations result in more of what it termed intimate partner violence than married people.

    But if you have a source for that fact, I’d be interested in seeing it.

    Meanwhile, just yesterday we have another of those murder suicides that occur pretty much daily in this country. In Ramsey – not North Minneapolis – and it involved apparently a married couple.

    http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/02/13/2-adults-cats-found-dead-in-apparent-murder-suicide/

    If you look at the accidental shootings, the murder suicides, the road rage incidents, and so on…….they are not specific or unique to North Minneapolis.

    The problems with guns that require gun control go beyond your arbitrary (and racist) assumptions about gun violence and gangs or urban areas.

  27. DG,

    That’s one off-topic anecdote (nothing about the reality of black-on-black crime contradicts the existence of other crimes), one vague generality (of COURSE there’s crime outside North Minneapolis) that leads to no actual conclusion and, as always, the unearned condescension.

    But it is a fact that black-on-black crime is a plague nationwide. In Minnesota, the firearm murder rate is around 3/100,000. Among African-Americans, it’s 12/100,000. That’s according to the Violence Policy Center, and I only quote them when I know it sticks my landing for me.

    The VPC piece linked above shows that death rates among African-Americans are between 4-6x as high as the national average – in urban areas. Which are synonymous with “gun control” and “Democrat controlled”.

    The connection seems to be much less in places under GOP control. Longer post on the subject to follow.

  28. Since Penigma’s Chihuahua (DG) apparently now has some time for posting, may I also express my interest in seeing her homework assignment? It has been months.

  29. from this source on Minneapolis crime rates
    http://www.cityrating.com/crime-statistics/minnesota/minneapolis.html#.UR1h9mf_18M
    2010 murder and manslaughter 37
    no breakdown provided for North Minneapolis
    per the Mn Dept of Health – 64 firearms homicides in 2010
    2011 all of Minnesota -74 murders
    that of course, does not break down the number of homicides/ murders by firearm
    It’s too today to contact the city of Mpls for the breakdown of shootings in Minneapolis by the different parts of the city, and hopefully I can find out how many of those were in North Minneapolis.
    More than that, though, I think we need to look at the frequency of non-fatal shootings.

    In 2012, of the 18 women killed in domestic violence, more than half were killed by firearms, and of those who were killed 10 were in the metro. The breakdown of women killed in 2012, according to the 2012 femicide report, at a quick glance shows roughly half were killed by husbands (including estranged husbands).

    An additional source that suggests that the assumptions you are making about the metro versus outstate MN are just wrong.

    http://www.health.state.mn.us/healthymnpartnership/sha/docs/1205healthofminnesotasupp.pdf

  30. no breakdown provided for North Minneapolis

    I’ve noticed you ignored the VPC stat that showed that blacks are killed 4x as often as whites in Minnesota.

    Why is that?

    And I read through your State Public Health site and found NO comparison between metro and outstate firearms deaths. Perhaps you can point me to the passage you’re referring to? Because I’ve read the entire thing, and I see no such comparison.

  31. Dog Gone disputes that gun violence rates in the Black community are worse than elsewhere in society and concludes no special attention needs be paid to Black communities; on the contrary, attempting to help Black communities deal with gun violence is racissssss. It seems she thinks the best policy would be to let Black-on-Black gun violence continue unchecked while focusing society’s attention elsewhere, domestic violence, perhaps. Her position is indistinguishable from that of the Ku Klux Klan. And she claims I am a racisssss?

  32. You claim 2 plus 2 equals 4. Got a cite for that? 3 plus 3 equals look, a rabbit! I wish I had a rabbit. But you hate brown rabbits. You are a racisss. Read my blog.

  33. Bubbasan: ” . . . about a dozen murders in the past decade outside Minneapolis, several hundred in the same time IN Minneapolis . . ..”

    Dog Gone: “Hundreds of murders in north Minneapolis? Got a source for that claim?”

    “From 2000 through 2009, there were 450 homicides in Minneapolis, or an average of 45 per year, according to data culled from the City of Minneapolis Police Department’s Uniform Crime Reports.” From “The Sky Is Not Falling” in Smart Politics, the Humphrey Institute at the Univ of Minnesota, June 23, 2010.

    Hundreds, yes, but can’t tell how many were in North. Might have to build a longer wall. Fine with me. Fence off the entire city.

    Total murders statewide for the same years were 1161, minus Minneapolis’ 450 leaves 711 for the entire rest of the state. The single city of Minneapolis (pop. 390,000) had nearly 40% of all the murders in the entire state (pop. 5,400,000). Black, White or Green, that’s a lot of murders concentrated in one small area. Seems to me that’s the bulk of the problem and worthy of our attention.

    statistics: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/mncrime.htm

  34. The problems with guns that require gun control go beyond your arbitrary (and racist) assumptions about gun violence and gangs or urban areas.

    I thought you wanted to reduce “gun violence”, DG. Or am I missing something?

    The VPC likes to claim 30K folks as victims of “gun violence.” That’s nice, but they fail to note that about 19K of those “victims” are suicides, i.e. mentally ill folks. If it’s really “gun violence” you’re working on solving, it seems mental health would be the appropriate target, not gun control since that would just drive folks to other methods.

    Of course, you might be talking murder/homicide now. If that’s the case, you’re in the wrong again, as murder is predominantly a problem of the black community I’m sorry to say. If you read the FBI statistics you can see that blacks make up 48% of the offenders and 45% of those offenders are black males (in cases where the races and genders are known). Any situation where 6% or so of the population commits nearly a majority of the crime is one in which you have a major issue.

    Side note DG: are you for the War on Drugs? How about Prohibition? Do you believe that outlawing those things have resulted in good outcomes? If not, why do you believe that gun control will affect the ways criminals get or use guns if they can so freely get and use drugs?

  35. DG,

    Your “fact checking” – and let’s be honest, it’s nothing but googling for statements from leftyblogs and MSM that match your conclusions, but I’ll humor you – seems to have missed this table here. It breaks down murders in 2011 (most recent available year) by race of offender and victim.

    Well over 30% of all murders are black-on-black. Afro-Americans are 11% of the population.

    To deny that there’s a problem is racist.

    To deny that it’s directly tied to social pathologies brought on by the products of generations of Democrat party rule is delusional.

  36. DG: yes, in the time frame your examples suggested, the past ten years, Minneapolis has had hundreds of murders. You can look it up, and while you’re at it, let’s work on your reading comprehension, too, OK?

    And yes, intimate partners report higher rates of domestic violence than married couples, and it’s not even close.

    http://www.citizenlink.com/2010/06/14/the-truth-about-domestic-violence-in-marital-versus-cohabitational-relationships/

    http://www.gwu.edu/~ccps/rcq/rcq_negativeeffects_waite.html

    http://marriageandfamilies.byu.edu/issues/2001/January/cohabitation.htm

    You want to deal with the murder problem, you’ve got to deal with the motivations of the murderers. Put gently, my family’s guns, knives, baseball bats, power tools, dogs, and vehicles have all killed fewer people–combined–than Ted Kennedy and his Oldsmobile. The difference is that I don’t have an out of wedlock affair that I need to hide from voters.

  37. I took a look at the gun violence statistics for the city of Mpls – they do an excellent job of tracking them; turns out those gun incidents are not quite as localized to North Minneapolis as Joe Doakes suggests.

    Then I took a look at the St. Paul gun violence stats. They show a more dispersed pattern of gun incidents too.

    Both cities track not only gun deaths but gun discharges; they have them broken down by precincts and neighorhoods, and have lovely maps, covering a period of years.

    Then I looked at the stats kept by the Mn. Dept of Health, which shows the same thing – gun violence is dispersed across the state, and is not only a problem in North Minneapolis.

    Then I looked at the intimate partner violence stats from Femicide (most recent is for 2011), which showed more married women were killed by their husbands than non-marital intimate partners, blowing away another of the assumptions expressed here, although there were plenty of examples of other relationshps where guns were used to kill women.

    Upshot – we have a STATE WiDE gun violence problem; it is not as specific to North Minneapolis as Joe Doakes suggests, and therefore broader gun control is in fact very reasonable, especially when you look at the number of incidents that involved legally owned guns used to commit illegal acts, as distinct from criminals who were strangers using stolen guns.

    So – tsk tsk – sloppy, factually inaccurate, AGAIN.

  38. Yes, Doggone, you are–tsk tsk–sloppy and factually inaccurate, again, and no less your grammar is having some trouble, too.

    Let’s work through this; Minneapolis as a city has ten times the murder rate of the rest of the state, with a concentration of crime in the north side.

    OK, if you’ve done your homework and learned a little bit about the Pareto Principle–that 80% of the problems are with 20% of the causes–do you see what you can do that will infringe on the rights of 100% of the people, or do you see what might be done to address the maladies of Minneapolis?

    Tsk, tsk, and with logic like yours, you wonder why liberal cities are such hell-holes, don’t you? It’s because you’re ignoring the Pareto principle.

    And the femicide link? Well, the most recent year is 2012, not 2011, and the reports don’t break things out by married or otherwise. Moreover, Minnesota thankfully has generally fewer than 30 each year–so the reports are pretty much anecdotal and cannot be said to refute the statistical data I presented. See here:

    http://www.mcbw.org/files/images/2011_Femicide_Report_FINAL_1.pdf

    Now the counts; in 2012, 9 women living in sin and five married women were murdered, and in 2011, 14 women living in sin and nine married women were murdered. Looks like Doggone can’t read data very well, and it bears out the contention of my links; that those living in sin are three times more likely to be assaulted or killed than those who marry.

  39. Upshot – we have a STATE WiDE gun violence problem;

    That was a pretty elaborate avoidance of facts, DG.

    You said ” took a look at the gun violence statistics for the city of Mpls – they do an excellent job of tracking them; turns out those gun incidents are not quite as localized to North Minneapolis as Joe Doakes suggests.

    That’s a strawman. They don’t have to be “localized” to be “worse”. The two worst parts of Minneapolis are the North Side, and the South from downtown down into the thirties – “Phillips” and “Longfellow”.

    Then I took a look at the St. Paul gun violence stats. They show a more dispersed pattern of gun incidents too.

    No, they show a lower violent crime rate – about 1/3 of Minneapolis’ per 100,000 people. But violent crime IS more prevalent in Frogtown, the North End, the Lower East Side than the rest of the city.

    You see to want to read that as “ONLY” found there. Strawman.

    Both cities track not only gun deaths but gun discharges; they have them broken down by precincts and neighorhoods, and have lovely maps, covering a period of years.

    So what?

    I’ll tell you what; I showed those to you the other day, and showed you that there are over twice as many gun discharges on the North Side as in the rest of the city combined.

    Then I looked at the stats kept by the Mn. Dept of Health, which shows the same thing – gun violence is dispersed across the state, and is not only a problem in North Minneapolis.

    Not just another strawman – nobody said it was ONLY a problem in North Minneapolis – but a facile evasion; what statistics “showed” you this?

    You ignored the USDOJ stats I showed you the other day, which showed blacks in Minnesota have a four times higher violent death rate than whites.

    Why did you do that, DG?

  40. I have this picture of Dog Gone nosing around from blogpost to blogpost and tinkling on the comment sections. It’s not about sniffing for content or context and responding accordingly, but all about bladder capacity and dribbling on the previous comment even (especially) when her own facts are shown to prove the opposite of what she claims they do. Provide her with links to additional studies? Shoot, that’s nothing another quart of kool-aid can’t fix.

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