When Dogmas Collide

Cliff Kincaid at Accuracy in Media reports that the Catholic Church – or parts of it, anyway – are up in arms (as it were) over the Obama administration’s mandates:

My Catholic priest, Father Larry Swink, delivered a homily on Sunday that I told him would make headlines. In the toughest sermon I have ever heard from a pulpit, he attacked the Obama Administration as evil, even demonic, and warned of religious persecution ahead. What was also newsworthy about the sermon was that he cited The Washington Post in agreement—not on the subject of the Obama Administration being evil, but on the matter of its abridgment of the constitutional right to freedom of religion.

What is happening is extraordinary and unprecedented. The Catholic Church is in open revolt against the Obama Administration, with Fr. Swink noting from the pulpit that priests across the archdiocese were joining the call on Sunday to rally Catholics to resistance against the U.S. Government. He said we are entering a time of religious persecution and that Catholics and others will have to make a final decision about which side they are on.

If true, that’s great news – but I gotta say I’m not nearly as sanguine.

I’m not Catholic – and in my observation, most Catholics outside the clergy and intelligentsia are as diligently observant of the Vatican’s rules as most Jews are of Kosher laws; birth control and hamburger on Friday are as common among Catholics as the odd bit of ham and Saturday shopping trips are among mainstream Jews.

And I know – exceptions exist, including among readers of this blog.  But in my observation, there are vast swathes of the Catholic Church, in major cities, that either turns a blind eye to the inconvenient parts of the Vatican’s rules, or is willing to rationalize and ignore them in pursuit of a “progressive” political agenda – which accounts for a huge number of Catholic liberals I personally know.

Oh, the Bishops will make a ruckus:

The issue is what the Catholic Bishops have called a “literally unconscionable” edict by the Obama Administration demanding that sterilization, abortifacients and contraception be included in virtually all health plans.

At a time when the media are full of reports about who is ahead and behind in the polls, and who will win the next Republican presidential primary, this incredible uprising in the Catholic Church is something that could not only overshadow the political campaign season, but also may have a major impact on the ultimate outcome—if Republicans know how to handle it. This matter goes beyond partisan politics to the growing perception of an unconstitutional Obama Administration assault on religious freedom. To hear the Catholic Bishops and Priests describe it, our constitutional republic and our freedoms hang in the balance.

But if you go to St. Joan of Arc (to pick a far-left parish of my acquaintance), it’s all an un-issue, ignored for the “greater good”; many, perhaps the majority of Catholic parishes I know of in the Twin CIties would trade, at the clerical level as well as among a fair chunk of the laity, the Nicene Creed for single-payer health care and Cap and Trade.

So am I wrong?  I’d especially like to hear from Catholics, here.  Does anyone at your parish – from your priests on down – care about Obamacare?  Has that “caring” been manifested in the form of “telling the congregation that it’s wrong, and that it’s going to screw with the what the Catholic Church supposedly holds dear?”

I’d be interested in hearing.

21 thoughts on “When Dogmas Collide

  1. In a close election the bishops don’t have to take the whole church with them, just peel off enough folks to deny Obama victory. That is an entirely credible threat. We should be thankful Obama wasn’t more patient and has overreached in such an overt manner.

  2. The bishops of the U.S. Catholic Church have been far to the left of their flock for a long time. Most priests are a little to the left of their flock. They made their pact with the devil when they turned a blind eye to all the Catholic politicians who were wrong on abortion (and the numbers of those politicians are legion) but right (meaning left) on “social” justice and all the other trendy causes of the day. If they won’t excommunicate prominent “pro-choice” politicians they won’t raise a finger against this new abomination.

    In fairness to the bishops and priests, holding the flock together rather than turning them out to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s has worked fairly well for 2000 years.

  3. I can comment of two fronts, first the Catholic experience. I’m a Catholic, and my family belongs to a St. Paul parish. Our priest, an otherwise very bright and nice fellow is clearly a lefty, which comes through in his homilies on occasion, but never in a dogmatic fashion (i.e. the Church demands that you believe in Obamacare). He has not spoken once in favor or against Obamacare (or really any other specific legislation, it’s always much more general than that. The Parishioners that I know are mixed between right and left, but more to the right on economics and more to the left on social issues, save for abortion (although there is a fairly broad mix in that area). In other words, I believe my St. Paul parish is a fairly decent reflection of MN (not St. Paul) in its politics – quite purple.

    Another area bears mentioning. Those Bishops. They tie me in knots when they make their pronouncements on political issues. They study Church doctrine and are required to disseminate that, primarily through Catholics, but to a lesser extent, the public at large. Their fault lies, however when they go beyond articulating Church doctrine and discuss how Catholic principles can be best implemented in society. They do so by discussing particular items of legislation, and determining whether and how such legislation complies with Church doctrine. The Bishops are “experts” in Church doctrine, and are the penultimate authority on that matter. They are not experts either in the eyes of the Government or the Church on matters of civil law. Certainly, they can offer the opinion of the Conference of Bishops, but should (and usually do, although it’s often ignored in the media when they make a left leaning pronouncement) make crystal clear that they are speaking for the Conference, not the Church. The Conference tries to reflect the values of the Church (I’d like to think), but does not speak with the authority of the Church. Even when I agree with them, politically (which does happen from time to time).

    And you’re right about St. Joan’s. Good lord, I’ve been to Mass there a few times, and I barely recognize it as Catholic. All leftist politics, all the time. Great band, though.

  4. As a failing Catholic, my observation is that the church has become less about the tenants of faith, and more about the facilitating of extraneous missions. Educational outreach has been the Rosetta stone of the church, at least here in California. The focus has moved from a spiritual education to just an effort to offer a better education than the public schools. A noble enterprise, to be sure, but still a move away from the intent of educating children in faith. Getting more kids into parochial schools seems to be the guarantor of the continuation of individual parishes.

    Don’t get me wrong, as the product of a Catholic education, it is the work of good and faithful congregants that improve a parish. But the focus has moved to education (where dollars flow into a parish), and away from the guidance of faith. There aren’t enough priests, and parishes are closing due to low attendance and lack of funds. We’ve seen several parishes combine in an effort to keep the schools open, which in turn bring dollars back to the parish. It’s a low margin affair, but it is a revenue source. In order for it to work it has to be a high volume model, and it just isn’t anymore.

    Mass has become more social than spiritual. Shorts and flip flops the common garb from Easter through October. The Vatican is inconvenient. Absolute rules and values are inconvenient. Most pay lip service to them and note to others, ‘well, that’s just the church’. The most prolific supporters of abortion rights always seem to be Catholic: The Kennedys, or here in California, the majority of legislative Hispanic leaders and democrats like Gray Davis. The Church is pretty specific that Communion should be denied to these people until they confess these sins, but it is not enforced. And when the occasional Bishop makes noise about it, the coverage is always about the intolerance of the church. More often than not, we’re a bunch of bleeding hearts. Rules be damned.

    Hey, comparatively, I guess I’m not such a bad Catholic after all…

  5. Mitch,

    I’m Catholic, from the cradle. A few things to keep in mind:

    You have to distinguish between “C & E” (Christmas and Easter) Catholics and regular parishioners. Catholics who attend Mass weekly are far more likely to accept Church teachings.

    St. Joan of Arc is, thankfully, not representative of the rest of the Archdiocese.

    John Nienstedt is not Harry Flynn or Jack Roach, either. He’s part of the newer generation of Church leadership that JPII cultivated. The bishops who have come on line in the last 10-15 years are significantly more in line with traditional Church teachings than their predecessors. It takes a long time to clean house and much of the work has been delayed because the Church has had to spend so much time dealing with the scandal of pedophile priests.

    The question is this — are there enough churchgoing Catholics out there to make a difference? I think there could be.

    But the larger issue will be what the Catholic health care facilities across the country do. If they are forced to comply with the dictates of Obamacare, there’s going to be open rebellion. And Obamacare won’t work unless they get the cooperation of Catholic hospitals.

    Also, just so you know, on most Fridays a burger is just fine for Catholics. The restrictions only apply during Lent, which has been the case since the 1960s.

  6. The Catholic church is a liberal organization. Many Catholics don’t follow church teachings and more conservative issues. But this is going too far for even “cafeteria Catholics”. The fed’l government, by order, not legislative vote, is ordering the church to purchase abortions, sterilizations, etc, for their employees.

    Even the very liberal Notre Dame University in South Bend is talking about civil disobedience over this.

    I agree with donlokk…..the government trying to change church teachings may be enough to bring the left and conservatives together within the church.

  7. “John Nienstedt is not Harry Flynn or Jack Roach, either. He’s part of the newer generation of Church leadership that JPII cultivated.”

    I am a lapsed Lutheran. Chilstrom and Hanson of the ELCA have turned me into a Christmas-Easter only church goer (at least when it comes to attending ELCA churches). The 2 most recent Popes, along with Nienstedt and Dolan, have made me consider converting. The former church has leaders who will eventually make their church irrelevent, the latter church has true leaders.

  8. Technically, they both have the same leader.

    But that doesn’t really impact temporal politics today, so it’s really more a tangential observation than anything.

  9. Last week, Father Peter’s homily at Maternity of Mary was on lack of personal integrity leading to licenciousness and its consequence, abortion, an act in which the innocent child is punished for the failings of the parents and is therefore a monstrous evil.

    Compelling Catholic hospitals to perform abortions strikes at a visibly prominent feature of that religion, no less than saying Amish must shave their beards and Muslims must eat hog’s flesh to be eligible to receive medical treatment. It’s not necessary to stamp out religion to pay for medical care.

    Students at Catholic college can get a student loan because education is a greater good for society than the incidental promotion of religion through government loans. A Catholic hospital that provides every medical service except abortion is a similar public good and patients similarly should be eligible to use their health insurance plan at the health care institution of their choice.

    Remember – if you like your doctor, you’ll be allowed to keep him under Obamacare. He promised.

  10. One of the arguements I used against Obamacare, is that now the federal government controls the healthcare industry, and political viewpoints will be involved. This isn’t just a simple reimbursement plan.

    Talking to a liberal Democrat, I used this example…..what if the government was controlled by hard rightwingers. And they decide AIDS isn’t going to be covered by insurance since it is a 99% preventable desease.

    That is kind of what is happening here. Now the healthcare decisions involve the political idealogy of who is in charge. In this case, it is anti-Christians in the Democrat party.

  11. I wonder what Jesus would have said if someone told him not to rock the boat and just go along with the religious establishment. I left the ELCA, because IMO they are now apostate because their political positions contradict the Bible. I found a very large Lutheran congregation who did exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason.

    Don’t stand for it, Catholics. The church wants your butts in the pews, and if you aren’t there, they will notice. Find an alternative. Jesus did.

  12. I know it will come as a shock to some, but my family and I attend one of the most orthodox parishes in the US; St. Agnes. (Latin & full symphony orchestra for the 10:00 mass in winter…we call it “The Full Monty”.)

    I think there is a picture of Obama in horns downstairs.

    BTW Mitch, for the orthodox Catholic line, I highly suggest you read “The Wanderer”

    http://www.thewandererpress.com/ee/wandererpress/index.php

    Good stuff, Maynard.

  13. Mr. D, I’m a little dissapointed, Mr. Mayor. The Catholic church didn’t have a scandal of pedophile priests, they had a pederasty problem.

    It doesn’t mitigate, in any way, the failure of the hierarchy to safeguard our kids, but it’s important to frame the issue truthfully.

  14. The Catholic church didn’t have a scandal of pedophile priests, they had a pederasty problem.

    Well, yes. Sorry if I was less than precise.

  15. I wonder what Jesus would have said if someone told him not to rock the boat and just go along with the religious establishment. I left the ELCA, because IMO they are now apostate because their political positions contradict the Bible. I found a very large Lutheran congregation who did exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason.

    Not to thread jack here (I’ve enjoyed reading the comments from Catholic readers) but my parents had a similar experience when their church congregation voted to leave the ELCA but didn’t have a super-majority (it’s either 2/3 or 3/5 and you have to vote twice). They and a bunch of their fellow Lutherans ended up leaving and forming their own church in town. It’s been up and running for a little over a year now (they just got a full-time pastor). I attend when I come home for the holidays and I can’t remember a time when I’ve seen people so generally happy and enthusiastic about their religion.

    IMO I don’t think it’s so much that the ELCA was so liberal, it’s that Big Religion has a lot of the same problems that Big Business, Big Government, Big Education, and Big Labor do – after a while it’s all about the interests of the organization (or the people running it) rather than the individuals. The best thing for religion IMO is the revival of community churches (or synagogues or mosques, etc.) that are focused and on the needs of their members rather than these monolithic mega organizations.

  16. Because there has never, EVER been a rabbi who molested children. Or a college football coach. Or a movie director. Only Catholic priests.

  17. I was raised Catholic by an Italian Catholic mom, in a predominantly Catholic neighborhood where almost everyone went to the same church. My union goon brother has my mom convinced that Obumbler was the second coming. I haven’t been to church in years, much to my mother’s consternation. She will occasionally nag me about it, using the old guilt trip, but the last time she tried it, I gave her both barrels. I told her I was tired of hypocrites in the church, including her, that profess to be devout in their faith while supporting the Democrat ideology and it’s leader that is pro abortion. She hasn’t bugged me since.

  18. I’m over near Hudson these days. We’ve had our problems with priests: a murderer pederast and now an embezzler have been 2 of our last 4 priests. Both were reflective of the times in which they were raised, leftist boomers, but neither fit well with the overall parish which is more conservative. You can tell that the Church has a stable of what you might call rescue priests to try and help parishes that have gone through troubles, since the guys who come after the losers tend to be pretty good.

    You can definitely see where JPII has had an influence. The guys coming out of the seminaries now are better trained and not proto-Communists. There were a couple of really, really bad seminaries run by Progressives/Communists that taught acceptance of gay-ness (including priests) that JPII shut down, but it will take a while before that generation is purged.

    As to the church itself in Hudson, the troubles have probably driven off all the fair weather churchgoers. There’s a strong social help network, but there’s also a very strong anti-abortion message. Overall, for a relatively conservative area the church is relatively conservative even if the priests haven’t been.

    We had a similar message from our latest rescue priest to the one delivered above: a call to action against this part of Obamacare. But during the debates the embezzler (former) priest talked about how we should give everyone health care. I don’t think many folks disagreed, but the idea of Obamacare was pretty universally rejected by all the parishioners at coffee after mass. The idea was charity from people, not government control.

  19. I know it will come as a shock to some, but my family and I attend one of the most orthodox parishes in the US; St. Agnes.

    I AM shocked.

  20. nerdbert…..
    Hugh Hewitt interviewed a priest who went to seminary in the old days (70s I think…before JP2 started having an impact). I think it was about a book he wrote. If the stories he told were true, then no normal orthodox Catholic man would want to be a priest. To have to go through a leftwing, gay seminary.

    I think over time, the priests from the 50-70s will be gone and the church will see many of its problems go away.

    And for the record, the Catholics didn’t have a problem with pedophiles. Pedophiles go after small children, and don’t distinguish between male and female, which is irrelevant at that age anyway. They had a problem primarily with gay priests who preyed on adolecent boys.

    The ELCA…….you know its time to leave a church when they praise and work with Yasser Arafat. And all the old folks sitting in the pews and dropping big bucks in the collection plate are clueless about this. I’d like to see a television show or movie show a crooked preacher that does this.

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