With yesterday’s news that the NTSB’s investigation of the 35W Bridge collapse will conclude that a design flaw from the 1960’s – inadequate gusset plates – combined perhaps with excess weight on the deck is the most likely culprit for the disaster, the Tics’ key political truncheon for the next session is on the verge of being seized from them.
And they’re neither happy, nor giving up without a fight tantrum.
“The NTSB investigation is not yet complete,” House Speaker Margaret Anderson Kelliher said Tuesday. “It would be helpful if [Pawlenty] would follow his own advice and not add his own speculation on the cause of the 35W bridge collapse.”
Kelliher – one of the dumbest speakers Minnesota has ever had – sounds like a teenager being confronted about a piece of wrecked furniture; “Oh, yeah? Were you there? Did you see it get broken?”
And Speaker Kelliher – you didn’t seem too concerned about “waiting for the report” when your caucus-mate Alice “The Phantom” Hausman went on WCCO to indict the failure of the gas tax even before the last kid was off the schoolbus, did you?
Pawlenty and DFLers came together briefly after the bridge fell on Aug. 1,
[Very briefly]
Pawlenty said on Tuesday that within hours of the collapse, a “political leader” whom he would not name had called him and threatened retribution and that since then opponents had made repeated and inaccurate “linkages” of the bridge collapse to his earlier vetoes of transportation legislation.
In light of the report, he said, they should “have the decency to correct those statements,” he said
Minneapolis and Saint Paul are one-party towns; being a Tic means never having to say you’re sorry.
He noted that there was “a bit of irony” to the fact that the design error detailed by the National Transportation Safety Board had occurred during the fabled golden era for public works in Minnesota.
Kudos to the Governor for saying that; the bridge was an artifact of an age that the DFL points to as one where “we” did things “right”. Indeed, if you want to indulge in excessive metaphor, the collapse frames nicely the demise of the “Minnesota Miracle” – the storied time when government took credit for a boom in regional prosperity that (sssssh) would have happened anyway in Minnesota, a sleeping giant at a time of immense growth nationwide.
“It is clear that MNDOT did everything humanly possible to maintain our bridges,” [Senate Minority Leader Dick] Day said. He accused Senate Transportation Committee Chairman Steve Murphy, who has called repeatedly for Molnau’s resignation as commissioner, of “prematurely and recklessly blaming her.”
But Murphy, DFL-Red Wing, was unrepentant Tuesday, saying that Pawlenty was overreaching and that the report drew no definitive conclusions about the reasons for the collapse.
“If a half-inch gusset plate kept that bridge up for 40 years, why not another 40?” Murphy said.
I’m going to pause and let that sink in for a moment.
Steve Murphy – chowderhead Tic who couldn’t pass an engineering class at gunpoint, but who would say 2+2=Bacon if Margaret Anderson Kelliher told him to – is saying “So what if the plates broke? What if they hadn’t?”
“Could it be because rust ate it away? Because the trips over the bridge went from 25,000 to 140,000? The parameters changed, and MNDOT should have been going back, making sure all the gussets, I-beams and plates could handle 140,000 trips a day.”
Of course – they did.
The NTSB’s safety recommendation noted that “although inspections of the bridge identified and tracked some areas of tracking and corrosion, at this point in the investigation there is no indication that any of those areas played a significant role in the collapse of the bridge.”
That set off U.S. Rep. Jim Oberstar, D-Minn., who heads the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. Oberstar said that such a dismissal of the possible role of rust and corrosion was “inappropriate and uncharacteristic of a board chairman. That [the design flaw] may be the proximate cause, but there are contributing factors in every accident.”
In other words – key Tic porkmonger Oberstar won’t directly try to politically undercut the NTSB, but he’s still running damage control for the locals.
Who, if there is any justice, will need it.
The DFL, as the curtain seemingly starts to close on the “mystery” phase of this tragedy, looks like a bunch of angry hamsters, angrily gnawing and chattering away, trying to wish things into being that just aren’t.
being a Tic means never having to say you’re sorry.
That has a familiar ring to it…
The Cons are grasping for something based on what most of us knew going in. A catastrophic failure that no one in the present was to blame for. However, the investigations following the collapse has shown the failure of Molanu in her roll as transportation head. While no one ever blamed Molnau for the cause of the collapse, the collapse itself will be a catalyst for her collapse.
Being a Con is never passing on a catastrophe to make a political point. Good luck with that! We see hoe well it is working ourt for Rudy!
Flash
Being a Con is never passing on a catastrophe to make a political point.
You mean, like Alice Hausman and Margaret Kelliher and Elwin Tinklenburg and Larry Pogemiller and Nick Coleman and Garrison Keillor and Steve Murphy…
Republicans have said NOTHING but “let’s get the results”. They have also favored funding roads (and the bridges they cross) and snubbing boondoggles like Light Rail.
What is the “political point”, other than “the DFL bet the house on trying to turn the bridge tragedy into a political goldmine for themselves”?
And if that’s what happened, what’s wrong with making sure it bounces back in their faces? (Since goodness knows the media won’t).
Finally, Flash – what are you doing, auditioning for “The DFL’s version of what they see Michael Brodkorb being?” The Publius fratboys already have that job. You can go back to being Flash.
I know Scaife advises you guys not to read the comments that rebut you, just to spew your pre canned buzz points, but I am willing to try again:
“”the investigations following the collapse has shown the failure of Molanu in her roll as transportation head. While no one ever blamed Molnau for the cause of the collapse, the collapse itself will be a catalyst for her collapse.””
For support, I don’t have to go any further than SitD, the post before this one:
http://www.shotinthedark.info/wp/?p=1971
quoting the Admiral
“”Bullshit! Pawlenty, Molnau & Co. are willing, able, and have been playing Russian roulette with the public safety. This is political, and you can take that to the bank. A cover up was just exposed.””
Burn the straw man and look at what I actually said, have been saying all along, and only some of your ilk actually have the guts to admit.
I don’t need to resort to MDE style poisoning, I have the facts on my side and just have to point them out to you . . . . repeatedly.
Flash
I realize Scaife advises you all not to read rebuttals to your posts and just to repeat the pee-canned buzz points, but I am willing to try again:
“”the investigations following the collapse has shown the failure of Molanu in her roll as transportation head. While no one ever blamed Molnau for the cause of the collapse, the collapse itself will be a catalyst for her collapse.””
Her failure to properly inspect, support funding necessary to follow through, and the construction going on the bridge itself being an additional factor on the collapse does not vindicate her, as you and your party attempt to tout, for political purposes, her vindication. You said you would wait till the investigate was complete, but have jumped all over a preliminary report that says nothing more than what we knew the day it happened. I look forward to that final report which should discuss what could have been done about it before hand to prevent the tragedy.
Furthermore, I don’t have to go any further than your prior post pointing out the Admiral’s observation. He gets it:
“”Bullshit! Pawlenty, Molnau & Co. are willing, able, and have been playing Russian roulette with the public safety. This is political, and you can take that to the bank. A cover up was just exposed.””
So burn your strawman, this is about her incompetence that was uncovered during the course of the investigate, not because your phantom DFLer is claiming Monlau was under the bridge with a blow torch on the trusses.
I don’t need to practice MDE political Poisoning when the facts are on my side, and if you’d actually read what I wrote, like you used to, you would know that.
You’ve taught me well, so well that I have long since passed you by! Thanks for lunch!
Flash
After Pawlenty presented his big hwy/bridge spending bill on…was it Monday? KSTP interviewed Murphy. Now the DFL is made because T-Paw is spending money to fix old bridges. I do believe we are experiencing PDS (Pawlentry Darangement Syndrom). Maybe I misunderstood his words, but I’m pretty sure he said that we shouldn’t spend any money to repair substandard bridges. I’ll check their web site and see if the report is on there. The only thing I can think of is that they want to use it as an election issue this fall. Now that T-Paw is spending the money, the DFL loses that issue.
Flash,
The old “I know you are but what am I” rebuttal kind of peaks in effectiveness in eighth grade, and steadily diminishes from there.
As to linking to the Admiral’s observation – you’re stretching facts beyond their rated load limit, using an argumentation gusset that’s designed for the wrong bridge; your argument is going to fall into the river.
There is *no* evidence that the 35W bridge was underinspected; there is *no* evidence that any information was ever withheld from the public about the bridge.
Comparing the 35 disaster and the MNDOT’s apparent malfeasance in Hastings is the kind of stretchy “logic” that’ll make you a top-rated leftyblog, but won’t win you any arguments among the sentient.
Hey flash, what else does Scaife tell us “all”? I guess I am not on his mailing list, so I did not receive the message. Bring me up to date, if you please.
Troy, they’re holding out on you. again! Even I get leaked a Luntz Meme now and then.
Mitch, Cons can Con all they want, but I would suggest they follow their own advice and wait till the report is complete. But then they wouldn’t be able to continue to politicize a tragedy, Scare and fear is about all you have left. Good luck with that!
Hey flash, what else does Scaife tell us “all”?
Troy – don’t mind Flash. He’s repeating the lefty talking point about all conservatives just repeating talking points.
I would suggest they follow their own advice and wait till the report is complete.
Like all those DFLers did before the last girder had fallen into the river?
Your side made their bed, Flash. I’m just tucking them in.
Geez Flash,
I assume you come to your own conclusions irrespective of whatever George Soros believes. I couldn’t care less what Scaife believes.
And my goodness – the bridge was barely in the river and the rescue was still going on when Tinklenberg rushed on KARE to start pointing fingers at Molnau, T-Paw and anyone else he could think of. We’ve had a regular Greek chorus of portsiders chanting about this. But when Pawlenty deigns to defend himself, he’s the one playing politics?
If there were a reasonable expectation that the preliminary finding is incorrect, then you’d have a point. But it’s quite reasonable to expect that the premilinary finding will hold up. Better than the bridge did, or better than the rhetoric of the critics does.
First law of holes, good sir.
I know Scaife advises you guys not to read the comments that rebut you, just to spew your pre canned buzz points
Spew! I invoke Kouba’s Law.
Jeff,
Hah!
Flash,
One more thing:
Relentlessly repeating “Scaife” and “talking points” is not the same as “the comments that rebut you“.
Mr. Scaife has told me to ask you, though: what DO you call Rep. Hausman’s, and E-Tink’s, exploitation of the tragedy on WCCO at 8PM on August 1, if not “politicizing the tragedy?”
Actually, if you listened to the NTSB news conference they explicitly made the point that inspections were NOT designed to detect design failures and that the inspection schedule and routine was just fine. You’re supposed to catch those things in the design reviews, but to be honest, if it’s one of your senior designers it’s tough for juniors to both catch the error and to challenge it, especially if you’re running late. All the inspections are designed to do is to look for relative changes that would eat into the stated margins since there’s no way the inspectors are trained to do the rather fancy calculations.
You might also note that when the reviews for the modifications of the bridge came up, the NTSB noted that because of the design methodology of these bridges the review process focuses on the beam properties and to ignore gusset plates and assumes they’re properly overdesigned (and they have to be overdesigned because even today with computers they’re nearly impossible to do analytically). This again goes back to the difficulty in figuring all the stresses unless you’ve done the original design, so for folks like those in MnDOT doing the modifications they’ve got to trust the original designers.
So, overall, you have a bunch of folks who don’t understand the process or underlying principles trying to score points. It happens all the time in engineering, although it’s usually management playing the game and not the politicians.
Mitch,
Tinklenberg was on WCCO, too? I saw him on KARE. He certainly made the rounds that night. Any word on whether he appeared on Cartoon Network?
The Phantom and E-Tink were on CCO radio together, IIRC.
And their message – “blame the veto!” – was delivered in tighter harmony than any doo-wop group ever managed.
Tinklenberg states “I think it does serve that our infrastructure in in trouble”
You disagree with that.
As for Hausmann, you know, well at least Mitch does, that I have never voted for, or support Alice Hausmann in anything. She certainly doesn’t speak for me. But if you want to play that game, I can certainly find more than enough Right Wingnut Goofballs that I could shave their words down your throat.
The point of all this is, the Gov et. all had no problem proclaiming lets wait till; the investigation is complete, and when a preliminary partial report comes out the flip flop on their own request and start parading it around as the definitive finalé
Flash
My God, the bridge fell down because it was a bad design, made with sub-standard materials and a poor inspection plan. The DFL wants to hang Molnau by her toes because she isn’t them, TPaw is pointing out that the DFL were Johnny-on-the-spot wrong five minutes after the collapse and Flash thinks Mitch is in R. M. Scaife’s back pocket.
I really do expect to see a white rabbit with a pocket watch pretty soon.
“I think it does serve that our infrastructure in in trouble”
English translation?
Flash, are you really blaming a target of months of possibly-unfounded criticism for having the temerity to point to recent events and saying “maybe it ain’t so?” Are only DFLers allowed to act like politicians in the media?
And as I recall, Pawlenty said something to the effect that maybe now the critics will wait until the final report is out. (Which I’m sure somebody will twist into some nefarious heavy-handed attempt to limit critics’ free speech…)
Are only DFLers allowed to act like politicians in the media?
Well, duh!
I mean, Lori Sturdevant praised Alice “the Phantom” Hausman for politicizing it, for crying out loud!
And five’ll getcha ten on Sunday, Sturdevant will be snivelling about how all of us “hateful” Republicans are “politicizing” it, now that it appears Hausman stuck her foot in her mouth to the knee.
Flash said: “Her failure to properly inspect, support funding necessary to follow through, and the construction going on the bridge itself being an additional factor on the collapse does not vindicate her, as you and your party attempt to tout, for political purposes, her vindication.”
Swiftee retorted: “Flash, gargling Gigi’s kool-aid for a minute and look around.
“Before the bridge collapsed, URS Inc., a private engineering firm, had been hired by MnDOT to study the span’s structural integrity. The firm once noted that any buckling of gusset plates wouldn’t be catastrophic.”
“It is important to understand that bridge inspections would not have identified the error in the design of the gusset plates,” Rosenker said.”
So MNDOT hired an outside engineering firm to inspect the bridge. The NTSB says that those inspections would not have caught the error.
If there is a smoking gun, it’s located in the now defunct offices of the firm that did the initial design and the MNDOT engineering staff that was supposed to be providing oversight at the time.
Carol Molinau was probably a teen ager at that time. She is not to blame; get over it.
Oh and one more thing Flash; you keep talking about an investigation that placed blame on Molinau…just what the hell are you babbling about?
What investigation? You mean the juice and smoke sessions that have been going on down on Plato Ave.? Have you lost your mind?
Never once have I blamed, nor claimed an investigation blamed Molnau for the 35W tragedy. At the most, I have only stated that you, as you all used to claim, should wait till the final report is complete before you vindicate her. That is what you all used to say, and I have said all along, until you opted to Cherry Pick a preliminary report.
What I have said, is that the investigation into the 35W collapse has, and will continue to reveal her failure as the Dept of Transportation Head. There are many examples of this, the least of which is in the prior SitD post where Admiral is quoted as saying:
“”“”Bullshit! Pawlenty, Molnau & Co. are willing, able, and have been playing Russian roulette with the public safety. This is political, and you can take that to the bank. A cover up was just exposed.””””
Regardless of what is said in the final 35W report will not change the fact that Carol Molnau has been a total disaster at running MNDoT. Some of you are beginning to see that. The rest of you will come around eventually.
Hah! Flash citing the Admiral from Anti-Strib in his facile attack on Molnau. That rabbit is looking pretty small way up there at the mouth of the hole.
I’m still hoping for evidence that “Carol Molnau has been a total disaster at running MNDoT”. Maybe after I take a swig from that bottle labeled “drink me” I’ll see things from Flash’s “centrist” POV.
“Never once have I blamed, nor claimed an investigation blamed Molnau for the 35W tragedy.”
Oh for the love of God…we’re going to play the Democrat game of hide the meaning of “is”.
Fine, moonbat; pay attention.
You gargled:
“However, the investigations following the collapse has shown the failure of Molanu in her roll as transportation head. While no one ever blamed Molnau for the cause of the collapse, the collapse itself will be a catalyst for her collapse.”
So my question is…now pay attention, I’ll type reeeeeal slow.
What investigation showed failure of any sort on Molnau’s part?
You just don’t get it, swiftee. Molnau should have chartered a private jet, donned her SuperHero suit, grabbed a helicopter and flown in to Minneapolis 5 minutes after the bridge dropped.
[insert: Theme from UnderDog. “There’s no need to fear, Carol Molnau is here!]
But I’ll up the ante: WHAT THE F–K WAS MOLNAU SUPPOSED TO DO? HOVER OVER THE SITE LIKE A GHOULE? GO GET A LIKE HAND COUNTER AND COUNT THE BODIES?
Or, go down to the site and cry like a baby for the cameras? Like the DFL did? I think I know what bugs the moobats about her…she’s an ADULT.
She should have been there to hold up the bridge she didn’t build after following the inspection plan she didn’t write.
It’s so obvious.
You all are using the bridge as a strawman to defend her, very interesting. And you accuse the DFL of politicizing the tragedy. Almost humorous, really.
Tom, I’ll keep it simple, but don’t think I’ll keep beating the dead horse. The closer people look at Molnau’s actions and behavior during her entire tenure as MNDoT Chief, the more they will realize she was not fit for the job. The Bridge collapse was a catalyst for this scrutiny. I can’t/won’t/haven’t faulted Carol for the Bridge, nor can I say anything about her response, since, I believe, she was in China or something.
“”Pawlenty, Molnau & Co. are willing, able, and have been playing Russian roulette with the public safety. This is political, and you can take that to the bank. A cover up was just exposed.””
It is her record as the head of the Dept that will be her downfall, not the bridge.
Flash:
You regularly accuse Mitch of changing.
He hasn’t.
You have.
Carol Molnau has been a total disaster at running MNDoT.
Actually, MNDoT has been a disaster in a very bipartisan way, going back to the fifties. Every administration has shared in its suckitude.
So even if we accept the premise that Molnau is an average administrator – neither fish nor fowl, neither great nor grotesque – she was working with raw material that has been one disaster away from making someone look like a monkey for two generations.
How many people died in Spaghetti Junction as a result of MNDoT’s atrocious road design?
How many people died or were injured trying to merge into backups at the many “Forced Exits” that MNDoT built as a “traffic calming” measure? Or trying to merge in the many “commons”es?
How many people have died at some of the wham-bam deceleration exits off of freeways – 494/Lake Drive, 280/Como, etc etc?
Molnau’s reputation is taking the fall for a LOT of stupid choices that happened, like the flimsy gussets, long before she came on the political scene, and will continue to dog us for another generation or two, no matter who’s in charge, no matter how high they jack the taxes.
How many people died in Spaghetti Junction as a result of MNDoT’s atrocious road design?
I am actually asking, seriously. Before MNDoT rebuilt the intersection (at immense expense) in the ’80s/’90’s, I recall quite a number of fatalities, including one a few cars behind me during one very close call. I’d not be surprised if Spaghetti Junction during its bloody heyday accounted for nearly as many deaths and injuries as the bridge did.
I was intending to comment, but by the time I read my way down here, I lost my appetite. So I’ll just offer a few things:
• To Mitch: Your personal experiences notwithstanding, Minnesota traffic fatalities per traffic mile have fallen pretty steadily since since the 1960s and one of the biggest drops occurred in 1982. Today, it’s less than half what it was in the early ’80s.
• I thought the DFL blame claims absent evidence were uncalled for, and Pawlenty’s “fabled golden era” crack is just as silly. The bridge may have design flaws on 2007 terms, but it was built to the best standards of the time.
• To Mitch again: Your “sleeping giant” supposition the Minnesota Miracle would’ve occurred anyway does not hold up. When the Minnesota Miracle was declared in 1971 by Time magazine, the national economic growth in the previous two years had been essentially flat. The giant woke up because of investment. Look it up.
I’m aware of the fatalities per mile stats. I’m talking about some pretty specific road projects that were incredibly badly designed and claimed quite a toll; Spaghetti Junction, Shepard Road, the commonses.
I don’t necessarily disagree about the various claims, but as I understand it the design flaw was still a flaw 40 years ago…
I don’t necessarily find Time’s declaration dispositive; I don’t think it’s unreasonable that Minnesota’s growth lagged the national boom by a bit. But I suspect that it would have happened whether there was a government/media complex to claim credit for it or not.
But Minnesota’s growth did more than follow the nation. We moved up very significantly in terms of per capita income and stayed there. Only in recent years has our growth started to lag.
But Minnesota’s growth did more than follow the nation. We moved up very significantly in terms of per capita income and stayed there.
But as I recall, we started out fairly low in per capita income; we had farther to go up.
Only in recent years has our growth started to lag.
“Lagging” while at the top of the region and very healthy nationwide.
Oh, and by “lag the nation” I meant in terms of timing, not money.
And as to Minnesota’s greater increase in income, let hypothesize: Let’s say Minnesota’s Per Capita Income (PCI) rose 2%. Say in turn that North Dakota’s rose to equal Minnesota’s in Per Capita Dollars. North Dakota would have posted a pretty phenomenal increase in PCI, because it is starting lower.
That, if I remember my history (and Paul Johnson, as I recall, wrote about it), that explains part of Minnesota’s higher-than-national growth; Minnesota used to be a relative underperformer.
Mitch, I’m not talking about growth rate. Of course that would be higher for a state that moved up from below average. But Minnesota moved all the way into the top rank, while other bottom feeders didn’t. The rising tide didn’t lift all states, in other words. Minnesota moved up relatively and substantially compared to its former peers.
Yes, we are still at the top of the region and doing well vs. the nation — but not as well, and not as well as we did before.
Yes, we were a relatively lower tier state in the ’60s, but Minnesota’s growth outstripped the nation’s in the decade of the 1990s, too, well after we’d made up the ground.
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