The Why We War
By Mitch Berg
I support Ukraine.
No, not in that “I’m going tro put a flag on my social media profile and call everyone I disagree with a Putin-bot” way.
And not in the “let’s risk World War 3” over a squabble over an ethnically mixed border area (although it’s worth noting that many of those areas are only “ethnically mixed” because the Soviets deported the natives to SIberia and replaced them with Russians.
I was, in fact, supporting a free and independent Ukraine back when most Democrats were saying “The USSR is here for good, get over it, wingnut”.
Why?
Among other reasons, because Ukraine has within its living memory this episode, the Holodomor, whose formal memorial took place last weekend.
One reason is that the Holodomor has been buried from the beginning — and not just by its perpetrators. New York Times journalist Walter Duranty, a Soviet sympathizer based in Moscow during the 1920s and 1930s, infamously claimed that “there is no famine.” Worse, the Moscow bureau chief led a foreign press corps campaign to discredit Gareth Jones, a Welsh journalist who reported the atrocities in March 1933. (Jones’ heroic attempt to reveal the genocide was depicted in the award-winning 2019 film Mr. Jones.) Despite his deceit, Duranty would go on to win a Pulitzer Prize, even though the Times later conceded that his articles were “some of the worst reporting to appear in this newspaper.” There continues to be a worldwide effort to revoke his unearned Pulitzer via an online petition initiated by the Ukrainian Holodomor-Genocide Awareness campaign. (READ MORE: Mr. Jones: A True Story of the Holodomor)
Unsurprisingly, the atrocity was also suppressed by its perpetrators. For decades in the Soviet Union, any mention of the Holodomor was treated as Western propaganda, something the ruling Communist Party did not treat lightly. Not until the USSR adopted its policy of glasnost in the 1980s was public discussion of the famine possible. (This is a sobering reminder of the danger in allowing the state to determine what is true and false.)
The Holodomor was the worst of the atrocities visited on Ukraine – but far from the only one.
So I support Ukraine. With an endless blank check? No. But in defending its existence? Absolutely.
“But Ukrainians are Nazis”. WIthin living memory, Nazis were seen as liberators from the people who’d starved the 1/4 of the nation to death. The war changed that for most Ukrainians – but it’s not a huge reach that some of the less-bright in Ukraine see “Naziism” as an alternative to the retro-Stalinism across the border that murdered them before and is murdering them today.
“But Ukraine is corrupt”. And Russia isn’t?
Save the strawman responses. No, I don’t want World War 3, and yes there needs to be an off ramnp, and it doesn’t appear that that ramp leads to Sevastopol, much less the eastern border of Donbas.
December 4th, 2023 at 11:58 am
Hmm. Seems to me Russia isn’t
the only bunch of thugs denying the Holdomore.
And if Im not mistaken (and I never am) that same unnamed country refuses to recognize the Armenian genocide.
I suppose protecting the brand is pretty important, lest the grift be diminished.
December 4th, 2023 at 12:04 pm
I’m wondering when the Ukrainian people are going to rise up and oust the clown posse running their country? Perhaps they are OK with Zelensky and several members of his inner circle using some U.S. “aid” money to buy $7 million yachts? Or Zelinsky’s wife’s multi million dollar shopping trips to Paris.
December 4th, 2023 at 2:53 pm
blade – link is an internal server error.
December 4th, 2023 at 3:37 pm
Regarding the claim that Zelensky bought yachts; false. The yachts in question are still for sale. Looks like someone made these claims up out of whole cloth. Same basic thing with the claims about Olena Zelenska’s supposed shopping spree. No good source says either of these things.
Really, the deluge of false reports coming out of Moscow’s supporters reminds me of little so much as the flood of nonsense coming out of Pravda in the 1980s. If supposed “conservatives’ take this seriously, it’s very clear that they learned nothing from the Cold War.
December 4th, 2023 at 4:28 pm
Mitch, go to the google “Israel+deny+Holdomore” and take your pick.
THEN go the the google again and “Israel+deny+Armenian+Genocide” .
I’m not here to spoon feed you.
December 4th, 2023 at 4:41 pm
Mr. Bubble, I checked and the story coming from the Uke’s. It is “Oh, hell no. Olena Zelenska did not spend $1.2 million on jewelry in NYC…it wasn’t even half that”.
Lol…. here’s some more embarrassing Zelensky graft for you to deny.
https://medium.com/@deborahlarmstrong/zelenskys-5-million-villa-in-egypt-fe3f80f76940
December 4th, 2023 at 5:25 pm
Based on the historical record, Ukraine has the moral high ground in this conflict.
Based on the current administration, Ukraine is a failed puppet state which has outlived its usefulness as a place to launder foreign aid into campaign donations and private political pockets.
On neither basis is any American willing to volunteer to fight and die for Ukraine.
So what form should our “support” take?
Sanctions have backfired. Stern speeches have failed. Giving them missiles and bullets was useless. No offense Mitch but changing my Facebook page is about all that’s left. What am I missing?
December 4th, 2023 at 5:45 pm
There is something appalling about the lies Kremlin Tom is willing to swallow. Egypt is a country which, from 1950 on, forcibly expelled Jews and nationalized their property, and at this point there appear to be fewer than a dozen Jews in permanent residence in Egypt. The likelihood that the Zelenskys would have a vacation home on any portion of the Red Sea–save a blessed free 5-10 miles on the Gulf of Aqaba near Eilat–is about the same as them getting a dacha in Sochi right next to Putin’s.
It’s like the Russians and their misguided supporters are not even trying to make their brazen lies believeable. Again, I’m reminded of the stuff I heard from Pravda in the 1980s.
December 5th, 2023 at 1:34 am
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December 5th, 2023 at 6:15 am
Supposing everything you say is true, bike, what then for Ukraine? What should the USA do next?
Send in the Marines?
December 5th, 2023 at 7:22 am
Here’s what to do:
1. Get NATO and the EU together with Japan and Taiwan and tell Russia “the sanctions end when you are out of Ukraine, and no earlier.” No exceptions if Ukraine can’t keep fighting; Russia loses their port in Sevastapol, yes.
2. Continued long range artillery to disrupt Russia’s supply lines.
3. Modern fighter aircraft to give Ukraine air superiority and further disrupt supply lines. Even a couple of squadrons of F-16s would make a huge difference.
4. Modern (not M-60 based) mine clearing vehicles to blow holes through the Suroivikin Line.
I really don’t think most of the world understands exactly how fragile the Russian Army is these days.
December 5th, 2023 at 8:37 am
Why do you suppose the administration has failed to do those things, aren’t even talking about doing them, but instead are suggesting Ukraine negotiate for peace?
December 5th, 2023 at 9:16 am
Bigman,
This current war serves many ends
1) wag the dog. It is a hell of a distraction from millions of illegal immigrants and inflation still at record highs .
2)Additionally it raises the twitch factor in the general public . Nervous people are more easily moved down a path you would prefer
3) And from the information that has come out of the impeachment inquiry , Hunter was Joe’s bagman for (among other places) Ukraine
December 5th, 2023 at 9:45 am
Russia poses an existential threat to Ukraine, negotiation with the invader will not lessen this risk and if anything could serve to embolden them in future.
We in the West owe a great debt to Ukraine in dealing material damage to a State which has deployed chemical weapons in the UK and sought to manipulate and damage the institutions we rely on. We would do well to remember this when considering the real cost of any reduction in material war support we provide. I for one will be remembering this when the next election rolls round.
December 5th, 2023 at 9:59 am
Many things can be (and, I suspect, are) true at the same time:
The situation is complicated. The premise is not.
December 5th, 2023 at 10:49 am
What I read here is the whole neo-con premise of making war. Dreamy forever wars with no goal that defines victory and acting as if it’s all without cost, human or financial, and that the enemy du jour has no say in the matter.
I would add that what makes Ukraine’s corruption special is its interrelationship with American (and specifically Democrat) politics and persons. There are lots of indications a whole bunch of the financial aid to Ukraine was simple money laundering that benefited the Bidens financially. As well as the DNC (remember how po’ folks aid in MN ends up being returned through political contributions?). Not to forget that the DNC has benefited politically (for example, one of the Trump impeachments).
I would further add that the concern about a border half way around the world while our own border is wide open is, on it’s face, ridiculous.
Whatever. The American Empire, being run by arrogant egoistical midwits and supported by people who should know better, will continue its slide downwards until something dramatic occurs and everyone wonders “what happened?”.
PS. by the way, the money’s all gone
December 5th, 2023 at 11:21 am
The West has negotiated with Russia before, and received formal commitments from it, to guarantee Ukraine’s security and borders.
The result? Not one, not two but three invasions.
Only the most credulous would ever believe any kind of commitment from the Putin regime. It will only enter into negotiations at a moment where delay suits its tactics; and it will drop whatever it signed like a hot potato as soon as that is convenient to its aims too.
People who call for negotiations as a supposed alternative to war are engaging in fatally flawed thinking. Negotiation is not a strategy or an alternative course of action. It is a simply a process or method that can be employed by parties who are already committed to exploring the possibility of an agreement. Without that prior change of heart, negotiations are impossible. Simply putting people around a table to shout at each other is not a negotiation.
At present, there are only two alternatives open to Ukraine: fight or surrender. A cease fire in place is simply a milestone on the road to surrender. It follows that — regardless of their self flattering delusions — those who do not support the Ukrainian war effort are indirectly advocating for a Russian victory.
December 5th, 2023 at 11:40 am
“those who do not support the Ukrainian war effort are indirectly advocating for a Russian victory.”
There’s that word again. Support. I keep hearing the need to support Ukraine but details…. exactly how should the United States support Ukraine, and for how long, and by whom? If they run out of munitions, fine we can send more. But if they run out of men, are we going to send in the Marines? If our military forces cannot meet the recruiting goals, will we initiate a draft to get enough warm bodies to support Ukraine by taking on the Russian army?
And how will you deal with Code Pink types saying “No blood for borscht”?
December 5th, 2023 at 11:53 am
What I read here is the whole neo-con premise of making war. Dreamy forever wars with no goal that defines victory and acting as if it’s all without cost, human or financial, and that the enemy du jour has no say in the matter.
Nah.
Just pointing out that foreign policy is ugly, and sometimes has ugly choices for everyone involved.
December 5th, 2023 at 11:54 am
Regarding why Biden and company aren’t doing what I say…well, it’s Biden, no? I do think the world missed a golden chance to put Russia under by dawdling on modern armor until the Surovikin line was built, and the world’s missed other golden chances by refusing to provide modern aircraft that can defeat the Russian Air Force.
That said, I don’t think it’s unwinnable, and the consequence of failing to take back at least Kherson and Zaporizhia is that Russia basically gets to treat Ukraine as a vassal state, because they can harass Ukrainian shipping and exports, and thus control the industrial heart of the nation.
Also, it’s worth noting–h/t the departed and unlamented Kremlin Tom–that in the past few years, most of the allegations of corruption in Ukraine are clearly false, and Zelensky is still alive. If the critical mass were still that of corruption, the FSB/KGB would have found convenient moles to kill Zelensky. So I see a great amount of hope there.
Again, Russia is very, very weak. They are not importing ammunition from North Korea, rehabbing T-62s, and trying to sneak in rifles chambered in 6.5mm Creedmoor because they’ve been keeping up with military realities.
December 5th, 2023 at 12:02 pm
Nah
The sound of my point being completely missed. That’s OK. The neo-con premise of making war is what we’ve been subjected to for the last 60 years (some might argue that Korea was the first instance) and it’s hard to remember the days when we as a nation took war seriously.
December 5th, 2023 at 12:04 pm
Emery
let me put your assertion to a historical test…
“At present, there are only two alternatives open to South Korea: fight or surrender. A cease fire in place is simply a milestone on the road to surrender. It follows that — regardless of their self flattering delusions — those who do not support the South Korea war effort are indirectly advocating for a Communist victory.”
December 5th, 2023 at 12:11 pm
I keep hearing the need to support Ukraine but details…. exactly how should the United States support Ukraine, and for how long, and by whom?
Exactly. I can always count on the Big Guy to say better and in fewer words what I’m trying to say.
December 5th, 2023 at 1:24 pm
The last time the US turned isolationist was in 1939, and the decision resulted in the deaths of thousands of US Sailors at Pearl Harbor on December 7th 1941. How many more must die on the failed altar of isolationism before the politicians learn it doesn’t work?
December 5th, 2023 at 1:25 pm
Crazy thought…
The war in Ukraine was a masters class in what military hardware worked and what didn’t. The most painful lesson of all is that a whole lot of really expensive bleeding edge sh*t got taken out by a handful of really cheap relatively primitive sh*t.
Maybe that’s the reason why a lot of really expensive US and NATO planes are not buzzing around that particular war zone.
December 5th, 2023 at 2:22 pm
Pig, one flaw with your critique of Emery’s comment is that the North Koreans haven’t tried to control half of Europe and a lot of Asia, as Russia has repeatedly. The Koreans have, rather, a strong collective memory of being under the heel of Japan, China, and Russia.
Hence we could contain North Korea because they were willing to be contained. I don’t think that Russia under Putin will fall into that category. Maybe when, Lord willing, Putin assumes Kremlin temperature, we’ll have that luxury–and in that case, the Russians will no longer be in Ukraine to begin with.
December 5th, 2023 at 4:27 pm
The last time the US turned isolationist was in 1939, and the decision resulted in the deaths of thousands of US Sailors at Pearl Harbor on December 7th 1941. How many more must die on the failed altar of isolationism before the politicians learn it doesn’t work?
As of now, the United States is operating 750 overseas military bases in 80 countries. There isn’t a chance in hell we will be isolationist in any meaningful way even if bete noire Trump returns to office. But it’s also worth asking if what we’re doing now is working, or more specifically who benefits from the status quo.
December 5th, 2023 at 5:05 pm
bikebubba
you missed my point completely, but no mind, you’ve obviously got an alternate reality to entertain you
December 5th, 2023 at 5:41 pm
I’m not an isolationist. I’m perfectly OK with being an imperialist. you want to take Saudi Arabia so we get cheap oil? Fine, conquer them, Install American bureaucrats to run the country, blow up anybody that looks at us the wrong way. be an Empire.
But that’s not how we do things. And our way leads to the Afghan Rout, the Iranian hostages, the Fall of Saigon. We should never do that again.
December 6th, 2023 at 8:16 am
I’m not an isolationist.
And I’m not a neocon.
I’ve just read a warehouse full of history and I have few illusions about the nature of power and aggression.
If that makes me a “neocon”, then we’re going to need a new word for “advocate of aggressive nation-building”.
December 6th, 2023 at 8:38 am
Mitch, thanks for the links about Gareth Jones. Fascinating story.
December 7th, 2023 at 9:11 am
No, Pig, I didn’t misread or misunderstand you at all. I just think it’s not an apt comparison. When the Korean stalemate started–the nations are still technically at war–the North Koreans were willing to allow South Korea to be armed and backed by a few U.S./NATO divisions, and they agreed to a 4 km wide demilitarized zone where no armed patrols are allowed.
In contrast, Russia’s conditions for ceasefire are a basic disarming of Ukraine, no NATO backing or membership, no DMZ, no withdrawal from Ukrainian territories. So more or less, the conditions are “we will stop attacking you on the condition that you leave yourself defenseless for our next attacks, and you know we’ve been infringing on your sovereignty pretty much continuously since 1991.”
So it was a totally silly comparison on your part, and I’m calling you on it.