Shot in the Dark

Poverty

In 1991, my then-wife and I made $18,000.  Together.  This, with one kid the whole year, and another born in August. 

We lived in a rat-trap of a house in the Midway: three drafty bedrooms, and a foundation that let mice in in droves; the rodents gamboled about inside the walls like Britney and Lindsay on the dance floor; they’d sweep across the floors like the herds of buffalo from Dances with Wolves.  It was cheap, and it was awful.  And it was all we could afford.

From mid-1991 into mid-1993, I (and, most of the time, my wife) went to Plasma Alliance twice a week – the maximum allowed – to get money for formula and diapers.  I still have a divot at the crook of my left elbow, the “sweet spot” where they’d do the draws.  I still know the language – waiting for the Fleeb to do the stick, hoping for a fast draw so I wouldn’t get partialled, because I needed a full check – and the drill (drink LOTS of water, eat NO fat for the 12 hours before the donation, so the lipids in the plasma didn’t slow down the plasmapheresis process); with enough care, you could donate a liter of plama in less than an hour.  It was worth $45 a week, if you did everything right.

I worked, of course; I was a nightclub DJ, making maybe $50 a night for 3-5 nights a week (figure a weekly take-home around $200-250), through the beginning of 1992, working nights and (when my daughter was born) minding the baby during the day.  I also worked at a couple of radio stations for 15 hours a week – KDWB AM and FM and WDGY – for about $6 an hour; $6.50 when I got a raise.  I was choosing, at the time (and it turned out to be a bad choice) to sacrifice a lot, one might say even obsessively, to try to re-jumpstart my radio “career” (and in my own defense, I did come close; I came in second place for the Program Director job at KSTP-AM in 1991, a week before Bun was born).  When that tanked, I worked at some other awful jobs; I was an essay reader for $7 an hour (a “sweatshop for people with degrees”, one of my co-workers called it), then worked for a legal document coding company for $6 an hour.  My wife was a waitress, and then did data entry work, when the pregnancy allowed it.

In November of 1992, with my son on the way, I found a company that wanted to pay me a couple thousand dollars to write an installation manual for a database configuration system.  I quit the coding job to put all my effort into it; on Christmas Eve, they called to tell me they were stiffing me for the money that’d been earmarked for two months of rent and NSP bills. 

The day my son was born, I got eviction and power shutoff notices (and word that the company that had stiffed me had gone out of business). 

Once, money was so tight – half a week away from payday, a day away from another Plasma Hut donation – that I fixed my at-the-time wife and I a dinner of rice with sauteed onions.  It wasn’t bad.  Other staples:  fried potatoes and baloney; cube steak burgers; grilled cheese sandwiches; a zillion variations on spaghetti.  Y’know – poor people food, the kind of starchy, fatty crap that is, at least, dirt-cheap. 

But according to Mark Gisleson at Norwegianity, I know nothing about poverty, at least compared to upper-middle-class, Volvo-driving alpaca-wearing dilletante Barbara Ehrenreich:

Mitch, who I linked to earlier, ripped on Ehrenreich recently, but his criticism says more about Mitch’s failure to “grok” poverty than it does his understanding of Ehrenreich’s writings. Poverty is about having nothing. If you have an apartment or house to live in, you’re not poor by real world standards. Impoverished maybe, but not truly poor.

Yes, Mark, and gosh, we were in a discussion about the American minimum wage, a context which I didn’t figure was an entree to comparing “poverty” in America – where the “poor” overwhelmingly have roofs over their heads, TVs, refrigerators and cars – with poverty in, say, Sudan or Indonesia or Bolivia. 

I didn’t figure it needed much explanation.  On the other hand, we’re talking with someone who can say this…:

 Let’s not even get into Ehrenreich’s new topic: slavery in the United States. But, like a radically anorexic minimum wage, I guess that’s OK with Mitch too, so long as it only affects a few people, and not Mitch.

…something too stupid and casually defamatory for even Kevin McKay or Jeff Fecke to write with a straight face.  My point about she who must not be criticized Ehrenreich was in Nickled and Dimed, she approached poverty wearing the equivalent of blackface; if she approaches slavery with the same upper-middle-class preconceptions as she approached minimum-wage life, she should (but likely won’t) get laughed off the public stage.

I don’t think Mitch is malicious in this regard, just unwilling to take a hard look at what Reaganism hath wrought. “Only a tiny, shrinking minority actually works for the minimum wage”? Mitch, if only one person was getting paid minimum wage, and if that wage didn’t allow them to eat and have a roof over their heads, why would that be OK?

Gisleson mixes his questions.

The vast majority of those getting minimum wage aren’t responsible for feeding or sheltering themselves, much less anyone else; they’re teenagers working at their first jobs.  Would that be “OK?”  Absolutely. 

For the remainder – those adults who are responsible for feeding, sheltering and clothing themselves?  Well, my religion bids me to take care of the most unfortunate among us, an injunction that I take as seriously as the aggressively atheist Gisleson ridicules it.  But that’s a personal thing.

Speaking for society, I have to ask; why does an adult earn minimum wage?   

Because no employer is willing or able to pay more for the skills they bring to the market, either because the skill is of little value to employers (flipping burgers) or the market is glutted with people able to do the job (non-profit work).

So why do these adults – responsible as they are for feeding and sheltering themselves and, sometimes, others – go onto the job market with skills that are only worth the minimum wage to employers (or even less; as the minimum wage rises, Macdonalds and Burger King are moving to minimize the number of burger flippers in their restaurants; they’re switching to pre-cooked patties heated en masse in microwaves, to eliminate the need even for most of the minimum wage employees at the grill)?   

In many cases, it’s because of a physical or psychological problem; they’re not able to learn a skill that’s worth more than the minimum wage. 

In many other cases – including my own, way back when – it’s because of that hoary old conservative cliche, “bad choices” which, like so many conservative cliches, is true more often than not.  Criminal records, drug or alcohol problems, getting pregnant as a teenager, dropping out of school, or just plain dissipation – all of them get in the way of learning a skill, or even just-plain good work habits that can take a person out of the minimum wage world.   And, unfortunately, it’s not just ones’ own bad choices that’ll get you; when criminals, addicts and slackers go on to have kids, and raise them in poverty (yeah, the American version of it, bla bla bla), and pass the culture of poverty down to their families, the kids are indeed victims of those bad choices.  And yes, before the inevitable self-righteous leftyblogger points it out, society has made some bad choices as well – African-American and Indian societies are chronically dysfunctional a century and change after slavery and the extinction of native culture, respectively. 

Factor out that last bit there (I personally favor extending tribal gambling as “reparations” – perhaps we should legalize marijuana, licensing the sales to proven descendants of slaves, to continue the pattern); what is society’s obligation to insulate people from their own bad choices?  Their parents’ bad choices?

Why should anyone who works be unable to feed, shelter and clothe themselves, and I’m not even mentioning healthcare.

Because tacking a few extra dimes per hour onto a miserable paycheck isn’t going to change anything!

And more importantly, because merely “working” isn’t the point; if society subsidizes the mere act of showing up and “working” with food, shelter, clothing and healthcare, then eventually 90% of our society will be leaning against shovels (figuratively and literally) while the other 10% slaves away to pay the bills.

If society is going to subsidize anything, it should be good behavior  – staying in school, learning a skill that can eventually help someone support themselves and those for whom they’re responsible, putting down the damn bong and keeping your johnson in your pants and learning how to support oneself and, eventually, raise families that value the same thing.

Blogging is about advocacy, but I don’t understand advocacy that seeks to take from those who have the least to give. Does it bother Mitch that minimum wage workers in Hennepin county will individually pay more for the new baseball stadium than all the millionaires in Duluth put together?

Mark:  Show me where I’ve ever stumped for subidies of baseball parks.

You’ll be looking a long time.  I’ve always opposed it.

As well as, for that matter, government subsidies of all businesses; corporate welfare is just as debilitating as subsidizing poverty.

I continue to have problems with capitalists who think they sprang fully formed from Adam Smith’s forehead, and that they owe nothing to society or other workers. Right now the underpaid restaurant workers are supporting the overtime that drives our economy, feeding people who don’t have time to cook, but can’t afford to pay real prices.

This isn’t as stupid as the “slavery” crack above, but it does show exactly how “reality-based” Gisleson and his ilk are not, when he notes that… 

…to the [“]reality-based[“]: eating out shouldn’t be inexpensive, or competitive with cooking for yourself. Or do you hate all those restaurant workers that much?

Maybe Gisleson has never fed a family (I’m willing to bet on it); cooking at home is pretty much always cheaper, and can certainly be faster.

Of course, not being “reality-based”, and a mere bread-winner who’s been raising kids through thick and (at times, very) thin for the past 17 years, what would I know about “reality”, as people like Gisleson see it?


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26 responses to “Poverty”

  1. angryclown Avatar
    angryclown

    Mitch informed: “The vast majority of those getting minimum wage aren’t responsible for feeding or sheltering themselves, much less anyone else; they’re teenagers working at their first jobs.”

    Funny, cause when wingnuts talk about the minimum wage, it’s always heads of families who seem to be getting thrown out of jobs that employers can no longer afford. If Angryclown had known it’s just them surly teens at Starbux getting pitched out of their barista gigs, he’d have backed a $10-an-hour increase.

  2. Chuck Avatar
    Chuck

    Not sure if this ties into this or not, but 2 weeks ago I talked to a man who owns a small factory. Metal type work. He employees 24 people. Says he could use a couple of more, but can’t find anyone. He said people today don’t like to work.

    Related to the college being oversold thing. We a have a lot of art history and psychology majors, or those that do a generic “business” degree. But we don’t have enough sheet metal workers because the high school students are told they need to get a four year degree, even if it is a meaningless degree.

  3. Mitch Avatar
    Mitch

    Funny, cause when wingnuts talk about the minimum wage, it’s always heads of families who seem to be getting thrown out of jobs that employers can no longer afford.

    Always? Hm.

    Always. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

    Always.

    Hm.

    I haven’t seen that, Clown.

    If Angryclown had known it’s just them surly teens at Starbux getting pitched out of their barista gigs, he’d have backed a $10-an-hour increase.

    Heh.

  4. Master of None Avatar
    Master of None

    if only one person was getting paid minimum wage, and if that wage didn’t allow them to eat and have a roof over their heads, why would that be OK?

    if only one person lost their job because their employer couldn’t afford to keep them on, and if having no wages didn’t allow them to eat and have a roof over their heads, why would that be OK?

  5. RickDFL Avatar
    RickDFL

    18k was well above the 1991 Poverty Threshold of $13,400 for a family of four. See: http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/figures-fed-reg.shtml

    According to this: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html
    14.2% of the U.S. population was living below the Poverty Threshold in 1991, so at 18k you probably did not even make the bottom fifth.

  6. Colleen Avatar
    Colleen

    Very good “column” today Mitch.

    This bit is especially true:

    “And more importantly, because merely “working” isn’t the point; if society subsidizes the mere act of showing up and “working” with food, shelter, clothing and healthcare, then eventually 90% of our society will be leaning against shovels (figuratively and literally) while the other 10% slaves away to pay the bills.”

    The other thing that chaps me is the lamented “health care” for the poor. The poor are taken care of and then some. The spot that’s kind of ouchy to be in is a worker with insurance…You pay. You pay the deductible, you pay the co-pay, and you pay full price. So most of the time you think any medical care over very carefully before you go. “The poor”? Not so much. It’s called Minnesota Care here in MN and boy, it seems to work swell for “the poor”.

    Then we have food shelves…people used to have pride and wouldn’t have been caught dead in one unless the need were great. Now? They use their money to go to the casino and do their “grocery shopping” at the food shelf. What could be better?! And since pride in yourself seems to be pride in how you can game the system, cheat on welfare, see how many babies you can pop out and still look as slutty as ever, get tattoos up the wa-zoo (those things aren’t cheap!), then the poor seem to be doing OK in my book.

    Everyone knows “real” poor people who need real help…and the ones helping them are usually church-based.

  7. angryclown Avatar
    angryclown

    Mitch reminisced: “In 1991, my then-wife and I made $18,000. Together. ”

    http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1380/2365_0011.jpg

  8. Mitch Avatar
    Mitch

    so at 18k you probably did not even make the bottom fifth.

    So who’s being competitive?

    Although I’d like to see that rate adjusted for metro-area prices.

  9. Kermit Avatar
    Kermit

    I’m sure 18K made you a prince in Arkansas in 1991. In Minnesota, not so much.

  10. RickDFL Avatar
    RickDFL

    “So who’s being competitive?”

    You were claiming to have personal knowledge of “poverty”. I just thought the $18k figure could use some context.

    Interesting sidenote, you picked a very good year to have a brush with poverty. In 1991 the minimum wage was increased for the first time in nine years from $3.80 to $4.25 meaning two full time paychecks went from $15,808 a year to $17,680 a year. So you and your wife were working for just about minimum wage in 1991. If you tried the same thing in 1990 you would have had to get by on about $1800 less a year or about 40 weeks at the plasma center. It is likely that every wage you were paid in 1991 had recently been increased to compete with the higher minimum wage.

    Just think of repeating 1991 without the extra $1800 and tell us “tacking a few extra dimes per hour onto a miserable paycheck isn’t going to change anything”. I bet it changed a lot for you in 1991.

  11. swiftee Avatar
    swiftee

    Having viewed the train wreck that calls itself Mark Gisleason with my own eyes, I have to admit that he is well placed to know what living day to day in poverty is like.

    But to believe that he can relate his experience in any meaningful way discounts the fact that he views the world through colon goggles.

    Most people live in poverty because a) that is what they have trained themselves for or b) that is what their life choices have left them qualified for.

  12. Troy Avatar
    Troy

    How is the “Poverty Threshold” calculated?

    More context from http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/faq.shtml :

    —–
    * The poverty thresholds were originally developed in 1963-1964 by Mollie Orshansky of the Social Security Administration. Orshansky took the dollar costs of the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s economy food plan for families of three or more persons and multiplied the costs by a factor of three. She followed somewhat different procedures to calculate thresholds for one- and two-person units in order to allow for the relatively larger fixed costs that small family units face. (The economy food plan used by Orshansky is included in a 1962 Agriculture Department report that is available on the Census Bureau’s website.)

    * Orshansky used a factor of three because the Agriculture Department’s 1955 Household Food Consumption Survey found that for families of three or more persons, the average dollar value of all food used during a week (both at home and away from home) accounted for about one third of their total money income after taxes.

    * In May 1965, the U.S. Office of Economic Opportunity adopted Orshansky’s poverty thresholds as a working or quasi-official definition of poverty. In August 1969, the U.S. Bureau of the Budget (predecessor of the Office of Management and Budget) designated the poverty thresholds with certain revisions as the federal government’s official statistical definition of poverty.

    * The “three-times-the-cost-of-the-food-plan” calculation was done only once, for the 1963 base year poverty thresholds, using the Agriculture Department’s economy food plan. Poverty thresholds for years since 1963 have been updated for price changes only using the Consumer Price Index.

    * The poverty thresholds were not developed as an item-by-item budget with specific dollar amounts for each consumption category. If one tries to consider the thresholds as a budget, all that one can say is that they were developed in 1963-1964 by multiplying the cost of the economy food plan by three. Other than that, it is not possible to say what share of the poverty line goes for any specific consumption category. (Note that the food share used to develop the thresholds does not represent today’s consumption pattern for either the general population or the poverty population.)

    * The Department of Health and Human Services’ poverty guidelines, which are a simplified version of the Census Bureau’s poverty thresholds used for program eligibility purposes, are the same for the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia. Due to Office of Economic Opportunity administrative practices beginning in the 1966-1970 period, there are separate poverty guidelines for Alaska and for Hawaii.
    —–

    The upshot? The “Poverty Threshold” is a reasonably arbitrary chalk mark made in 1963 and extended every year since then using the CPI. It is an national average and takes no account of regional differences in cost of living (except for HI and AK). To say it defines the limits of “poverty” nationwide might be a stretch. *shrug*

  13. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    Swiftee gets it right:
    Most people live in poverty because a) that is what they have trained themselves for or b) that is what their life choices have left them qualified for.

    Notice the word “most”, progressive brethren. It does not mean the same thing as “all”. Any one of us could find themselves, through no fault of their own, on very hard times. The question is whether the federal minimum wage should be increased so that all the people who earn that wage — including teenagers with no job skills, and people in their 20’s, 30’s and 40’s with no physical or mental handicap who still haven’t learned the basic skill of showing up on time and ready to work — should get a pay raise along with the truly deserving.

    If you want to help po’ folk’s who really need the money, raise the earned income tax credit.

  14. MLP Avatar
    MLP

    Brilliant economists such as Walter E. Williams and Thomas Sowell (whom I would vote for for President if he ever chose to run) have written extensively on the topic of minimum wage and how it ultimatly hurts the poor.

    The argument isn’t “is the minimum wage high enough?” but “Does a minimum wage help more people than what the market will dictate?”

    Liberals, historically, aren’t interested in what works, only in what makes them feel morally superior.

  15. charlieq Avatar

    “The vast majority of those getting minimum wage aren’t responsible for feeding or sheltering themselves, much less anyone else; they’re teenagers working at their first jobs.”

    The conservative Heritage Foundation begs to differ.
    http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm1186.cfm

    It reports that 53% earning minimum wage are between the ages of 16 and 24. Roughly half in that age group might qualify as “teenagers.” Let’s assume not a single 19-year-old is on his own. That’s still quite a ways from a vast majority.

    Reading their data, it turns out about 20% of those earning minimum wage live in poverty — 17% earning minimum wage from the young group live at or below poverty (9 percent of the total) and 23% of the older group do (10.8 percent of the total).

    We can argue about how useful minimum wage is, but let’s have our facts straight when we do.

  16. Troy Avatar
    Troy

    The authors of:

    http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm1186.cfm

    come to this conclusion:

    “Many support raising the minimum wage because they want to help low-income Americans get ahead. But while some minimum wage-earners do live below the poverty line, these workers are far from representative. Only one in five minimum wage-earners lives in a family that earns less than the poverty line. Three-fifths work part-time, and a majority are under 25 years old. Minimum wage-earners’ average family income is almost $50,000 per year. Very few are single parents working full-time to support their families—no more than in the population as a whole. It is not surprising, then, that studies show that higher minimum wages do not reduce poverty rates. Instead of raising the minimum wage, Congress should look at other ways to aid the working poor that actually focus on providing help to those who need it.”

    which seems to affirm the quote, not counter it. Am I not reading it right? It’s been a long day. 🙂

  17. charlieq Avatar

    Thanks for checking an actual source, Troy. It all depends on how you look at the data vs. what Heritage says about it. The first issue is whether you think minimum wage earners are actually living quie comfortably. I’d say that “one in five” is not representative, but it certainly would concern me that 20% of the people are working and still in poverty.

    The larger argument is about whether raising the minimum wage helps people get ahead. If you read the paragraph carefully, it doesn’t really say yes or no about individual cases in the 20% being helped. Instead, it says the overall poverty rate won’t be much changed, because only a minority of those workers are in poverty to begin with.

    Mark Gislesen, though, is talking about individual human beings. not overall poverty rates.

    Does that help?

  18. Troy Avatar
    Troy

    Thanks charlieq. I do try to do that.

    On whether minimum wage earners are living comfortably, I think that depends on if they the sole providers of their support. If they get help (money, food, shelter, …) from parents, relatives, roommates, or government they can live a lot more comfortably than a minimum wage income would normally indicate.

    I don’t think the larger argument is whether raising minimum wage will help _some_ people get ahead. I think their point is that, even if it did help that percentage of people working for minimum wage and in poverty, the minimum wage is an ineffective tool to help the poverty stricken exactly because that percentage is not large.

  19. carmelitta Avatar
    carmelitta

    This is all a pretty lopsided argument isn’t it? None of you seem to be hurting for money. Pretty much all of you have made “good choices”.
    Wonderful. Really. So what is your real dig with raising minimum wage. You worried it’s gonna come out of your pocket?
    Colleen is saying the poor get Minnesota Care. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Colleen, it ain’t that easy girl. First of all you pay for MNCare – it’s not free, and secondly, they well get around to you when they darn well please. For me, twice now, it’s been over 6 months to process paperwork. The first time, they tried to filter it through welfare because the GOVERNMENT shut down. And none of you mention that not all jobs include benefits.
    Ya know, you guys can huff all day. I really wish though, that you’d try to quit judging everyone, show a little respect and pick up the bottom line. People need to earn a decent wage. It’s ludicrous to bitch because they are working. You bitch if they aren’t working, you bitch about MNCare….No, everyone isn’t as wonderful as you are evidently and aren’t as smart. Why don’t you just say America is for the smart and “good” people and the rest can go to hell.
    I did think Chuck made a good point about kids being told not to DO metal working but rather get a degree – even if it’s a meaningless one. Its true and it works. While you go to school however, you probably have to work one of those menial minimum wage jobs and get ridiculed for it. If you are not just out of high school, it’s even worse. You say, get an education so you can earn a decent living, and when you do, people bitch. I won’t even say make up your minds about whats right.
    You already have. Why don’t you just be honest about it.

  20. shimauma Avatar

    //Pretty much all of you have made “good choices”.
    Wonderful. Really. So what is your real dig with raising minimum wage. You worried it’s gonna come out of your pocket?//

    Yes, Carmelitta, eventually it will. First off, SOME businesses won’t be able to afford a higher minimum wage, they’ve budgeted for what they pay people and try to improve their business, reach more clients/customers, get better products to make more business, give the employees who have WORKED HARD to help improve the business RAISES(ie a share of the profit) and continue the cycle. NOW with being forced to pay higher wages to untried employees who may end up as loaffers that don’t try to improve the business, ’cause, hey they’re making more money without working hard, the business eventually goes under, everybody loses their job and there you go, more loafers on welfare, which costs tax dollars, which come out of my hard worked for pay, SO DON’T YOU TELL ME A HIGHER MINIMUM WAGE WON’T COME OUT OF MY POCKET! There was a TWO BILLION dollar surpluse in income tax last year and it sure as hell didn’t come from folks on WELFARE!

    And before you even question my level of society, let me tell you the ONLY reason we’re still HERE IN FREAKING MINNESOTA, is because we CAN’T AFFORD TO LEAVE!!!!! Dumbass.

    Back to you, Mitch.

  21. davod Avatar
    davod

    As stated earlier, there is a considerable difference between what is poverty in the US and what is poverty in a third world country. The definition of poverty is a measure of where someone stands in the income levels. In Egypt or Smalia this means you are starving. In the US it means you are inconvenienced. Very few people have to starve in the US.

    How does the federal government collect the stats on poverty and where do they go to collect the stats. I ask this because a few years ago the federal government announced a jump in the level of homelessnesss. When the numbers were questioned we find that there was no independant review done, the government asked the providors of homeles care to tell them howe many they were caring for. No wonder the numbers spiked.

    The income stated does not include many of the food and financial benefits provided to low income people by the local/state and federal governments.

    If the intent is to establish at what level people are unable to live then you need to include any benefits people get to stave off the problems of homelessness and hunger.

  22. nate Avatar
    nate

    William F. Buckley, Jr., clarified the minimum wage debate years ago by asking: If raising the minimum wage is the right thing to do, why stop at $5.00 an hour? Why not $100 and we’ll all be rich?” Think through the economic consequences and it’s immediately clear that the minimum wage has nothing to do with fighting poverty, it’s feel-good legislation being driven by Big Labor because their union contracts set pay for union members as a multiplier of the minimum wage.

    It amazes me that people expect to prosper without working. I’m nearly 50 and I’ve finally “made it” so naturally, I must hate poor people and know nothing of poverty. In reality, I did my time eating rice because it was all I could afford, and I haven’t worked as little as 40 hours a week for well over 25 years.

    The figures – including the Heritage study cited above – show minimum wage earners working fewer hours than the people who succeed. So work more. Work two jobs and spend less. Work weekends, too. No, you can’t have a life – you can’t afford it right now – so work and save. A boss who sees an employee busting ass every day sees a promotion in the making. Make it happen for yourself.

    I once attended a house-warming for one of the Twin Cities most successful PI lawyers at his “cabin” on the lake. As we walked the grounds admiring the Criss Craft boat parked near the private waterfall, a kid remarked that it must be nice to be rich. The lawyer told the kid that he could be rich, too. The kid was unconvinced. The lawyer explained that he started from nothing, just like the kid, but the kid could get rich just as the lawyer did. All he had to do was work 15 hours a day, every day, for the next 35 years, and he’d be rich too.

    Horatio Alger Forever!

    .

  23. RickDFL Avatar
    RickDFL

    “it’s feel-good legislation being driven by Big Labor because their union contracts set pay for union members as a multiplier of the minimum wage.”

    Several days ago you posted a similar comment and I challenged you to cite a single union contract where worker pay was set a multiplier of the minimum wage (Federal or State). Neither you nor any other posters where able to cite a single example of such a contract. What may have been a mistake then, now can only be a deliberate lie.

    Your ignorance on union contracts is not surprising given your ignorance of economics. The fact that there are good reasons not to raise the minimum wage to $100 per hour, hardly implies that there are not good reasons to raise it to $7.50 per hour. There are good reasons not to take 100 Advil, does that keep you from taking two?

  24. Troy Avatar
    Troy

    RickDFL said:

    “ignorance of economics”

    It’s good to see you writing about what you know.

  25. RickDFL Avatar
    RickDFL

    Nate is also wrong about this: “All he had to do was work 15 hours a day, every day, for the next 35 years, and he’d be rich too”

    Sadly Horatio Alger is alive and well, but he has a union job in the Euro zone. According to a recent study by, in part, the conservative American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation:

    “Recent studies suggest that there is less economic mobility in the United States than has long been presumed. The last thirty years has seen a considerable drop-off in median household income growth compared to earlier generations.
    And, by some measurements, we are actually a less mobile society than many other nations, including Canada, France, Germany and most Scandinavian countries. This challenges the notion of America as the land of opportunity.”

    Read for yourself at: http://www.economicmobility.org

  26. phaedrus Avatar

    The figures – including the Heritage study cited above – show minimum wage earners working fewer hours than the people who succeed. So work more. Work two jobs and spend less. Work weekends, too. No, you can’t have a life – you can’t afford it right now – so work and save. A boss who sees an employee busting ass every day sees a promotion in the making. Make it happen for yourself.

    All he had to do was work 15 hours a day, every day, for the next 35 years, and he’d be rich too.

    Man, I gotta say, my first reaction to this is – what a horrible way to live.

    Lets set aside the “to be rich” option. Sure, I’d like to be rich, but I am not willing to live that kind of life to do so.

    There is so much more available in life than [whatever your/my/his/her] job is. I’ve got no problem if you want to focus your life around your work so you can get more things. Its not what I’d do, but you’re not me.

    However, for those of us who are willing to work but want to focus our lives on other things, here’s what I’ think anyone should be able to have for a reasonable amount of work:

    Food – not just crap but stuff that is healthy and nutritional. Tasty’d be nice. I’m not talking caviar and kobe beef for everyone but fresh fruits and vegetables, wholesome grains, etc., should be not be an inaccessible goal for anyone. This is the area where I believe we are most lacking. The carb and bad-fat heavy diet that is the result of eating cheap food results in health problems, weight problems, blod sugar control problems and more. They’ve found that they can significantly improve student achievement and behavior just by improving what they feed them for lunch – I’d like to see the solution implied that discovery encouraged.

    Clothing. Merino wool and silk or 100 pairs of shoes isn’t necessary but human dignity and health in this climate and culture means that a person should be able to have at least 2 or 3 changes of decent clothing as well as basic winter gear.

    Shelter. Not a mansion but the bare minimum for being able to live a life that allows you to participate in society with some level of security is a small room that is warm enough to stay healthy and secure enough that you can leave something in it and have reasonable expectation that it’ll be there when you get back. There should be access to the abilities to cook and clean.

    Health care. A person should have a reasonable expectation that if a calamity happens or they fall ill that their life won’t have to completely fall apart for it. One shouldn’t have to be destroyed financially in order to get the care to recover physically.

    Education. No matter how badly a parent has screwed up their life, a child should have access (and some degree of encouragement) to enough education for them to be able to step beyond their parent’s mistakes.

    In one sense, none of these are what I would call basic rights. When I look at the natural world – one that isn’t dictated by human philosophies or sensibilities, there is one basic rule – you have the right to what you can take and keep.

    However, we human beings for various reasons believe that our standard of treating each other should be higher than that. Personally, I think it evolved as a requirement for large societies to exist and prosper but many people believe that this was a divine commandment handed down to humanity.

    The things I’ve mentioned, many societies have managed to come near being able to provide for its members. To an extent, we really do have many of them covered for the most part but especially when it comes to food and health care, I don’t think we’ve got it nailed. I unfortunately don’t have them at my fingertips but I’ve seen statistics of childhood malnutrition and infant mortality are significantly higher in the United States than in many other “first world” nations.

    Even though we’ve been slipping for a bit now, we are still arguably the largest, wealthiest, most powerful society that has ever existed. I simply can’t believe that something so basic is beyond our capability.

    No, I don’t think everyone needs a car or a TV set or brand name anything. If you want those things, work harder. They’re privileges to be earned, not rights in any sense of the word.

    But, I do think that for our culture to return to its course of prosperity as well as its place in global perception as a true land of opportunity, the base lines I’ve mentioned should be available to every citizen.

    On the one hand, you’d probably have a fair number of people who wouldn’t bother trying hard at all and just exist at that basic level. On the other hand, how many success stories have you heard that are predicated by failure after failure after failure? How many families were destroyed in that process? Children neglected? How many people are psychologically equipped to be able to take that risk even once let alone more than once?

    However, if people knew that even if their business venture completely flopped that they and their families would still have food on their table, a place to live, and the ability to see a doctor when they were sick, how many more would be able to take that risk?

    Similarly, many people end up in lines of work that they don’t like (and don’t do well at) because they don’t have the means or confidence to pursue something they might really do well at?

    In many ways, I am a libertarian at heart (and was before I’d ever heard of John Ashcroft – who as it turns out was amazingly devoted to the Constitution in comparison with some of the rest of the administration). However, I do have a streak of socialism in me that believes that these basic things can be ensured to everyone in our society and that our society will be better for it.

    Yes, I agree, there are a lot of devils in the details when it comes to how we achieve these basic “needs” as well as how exactly we define them (For instance, my definition of what healthy food is is perhaps more upscale than other people’s) but I think to accept that we can’t manage it in this great country is giving up too easily.

    I’ll accept that raising minimum wage may not be the best way (but there are certainly worse ways) to solve the problem of people not getting these basics covered but I won’t accept that a solution can’t be found. I’ll even go further and say that the right solution won’t even be that onerous of a burden on the rest of us.

    (At least, not until we pass peak oil. Then, I think, we’re most likely fucked.)

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