Shot in the Dark

The Tesla, my friend, is blowing in the wind…

Leftism is all about harnessing the power of pixie dust and expeller pressed unicorn horn oil. I wish the laws of economics and of nature to be different, therefore they are. One way magical thinking manifests itself is the sun-dappled dream that we can get rid of fossil fuels, switch to electric vehicles, the changeover will be painless, and we won’t notice any change in our standard of living.

An electric car is, well, electric, and electric is easy because I can just plug in my Vitamix blender at home to make my artisanal kale smoothie and it just turns on and couldn’t be simpler. So having an electric car will be just as easy!

Michael Lind has a good article in Tablet outlining the difficulties in putting an electric car in every garage. Never mind how we’re going to “cleanly” produce all the electricity these vehicles would consume. Electric vehicles, and especially the batteries that power them, require the kinds of natural resources that don’t grow on trees.

But according to experts on global mineral production who belong to SoS Minerals, in a letter delivered to the British Committee on Climate Change:

The metal resource needed to make all cars and vans electric by 2050 and all sales to be purely battery electric [in the UK] by 2035. To replace all UK-based vehicles today with electric vehicles (not including the LGV and HGV fleets), assuming they use the most resource-frugal next-generation NMC 811 batteries, would take 207,900 tonnes cobalt, 264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate (LCE), at least 7,200 tonnes of neodymium and dysprosium, in addition to 2,362,500 tonnes copper. This represents, just under two times the total annual world cobalt production, nearly the entire world production of neodymium, three quarters the world’s lithium production and 12% of the world’s copper production during 2018. Even ensuring the annual supply of electric vehicles only, from 2035 as pledged, will require the UK to annually import the equivalent of the entire annual cobalt needs of European industry. …

Challenges of using ‘green energy’ to power electric cars: If wind farms are chosen to generate the power for the projected two billion cars at UK average usage, this requires the equivalent of a further years’ worth of total global copper supply and 10 years’ worth of global neodymium and dysprosium production to build the windfarms.

There is not enough cobalt, neodymium, or lithium being mined and refined in the entire world today for Britain to meet its green transition goals in the next generation. And Britain has only 67 million people. The United States has 330 million. The world has nearly 8 billion. Do the math.


What’s more, of the supply of ores that does exist, where are they?

For its part, China dominates global production of many essential minerals, both directly—producing 63% of rare earths and 45% of molybdenum—and indirectly, by investing in lithium mines in Australia, platinum mines in South Africa, and cobalt mines in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

A few decades ago, the United States mined and refined many of the minerals it now imports. But thanks to cheap labor abroad, excessive environmental regulations at home, and the fantasy of the post-material “information economy,” the U.S. government allowed corporations to shut down many American mines even as other firms shuttered American factories.

The article links to this Manhattan Institute report by Mark Mills, which makes for interesting reading. One tidbit is this:

A lithium EV battery weighs about 1,000 pounds. While there are dozens of variations, such a battery typically contains about 25 pounds of lithium, 30 pounds of cobalt, 60 pounds of nickel, 110 pounds of graphite, 90 pounds of copper, about 400 pounds of steel, aluminum, and various plastic components.

In total then, acquiring just these five elements to produce the 1,000-pound EV battery requires mining about 90,000 pounds of ore… This means that accessing about 90,000 pounds of ore requires digging and moving between 200,000 and over 1,500,000 pounds of earth—a rough average of more than 500,000 pounds per battery.

And what is moving all this earth? Elves? Oh no. We’re digging all this out of the ground with glorious carbon-munching smoke-belching machines that run on liquid dinosaur.

Mills says:

As recently as 1990, the U.S. was the world’s number-one producer of minerals. Today, it is in seventh place.

More relevant, as the United States Geological Survey (USGS) notes, are strategic dependencies on specific critical minerals. In 1954, the U.S. was 100% dependent on imports for eight minerals. Today, the U.S. is 100% reliant on imports for 17 minerals and depends on imports for over 50% of 29 widely used minerals. China is a significant source for half of those 29 minerals.

Last year, Minnesota Governor/Dear Leader Walz decreed in the State Register (democracy!) new “clean car” standards that push for more electric vehicles. From MPR:

Minnesota officially adopted regulations championed by Gov. Tim Walz on Monday to encourage the switchover to electric vehicles.

The “clean car” rules published in the State Register take effect in 2024 with the 2025 model year. They’ll require manufacturers and dealers to supply more electric vehicles for the Minnesota marketplace.

The Walz administration said the rules will lead to cleaner air and help combat climate change by increasing the choices Minnesotans have for purchasing electric cars. It said the changes will protect public health and save Minnesotans money at the pump.

How willing do you think a hostile China will be to play nice and bend over backwards to supply all the scarce resources we want? And at what price? Never mind electric cars, some day we might need to hitch a unicorn up to our buggy.


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28 responses to “The Tesla, my friend, is blowing in the wind…”

  1. Joe Doakes Avatar
    Joe Doakes

    Setting aside batteries, let’s talk about charging stations.
    A Tesla charging station draws 50 amps of 220 volt current.
    Electricity to charge electric cars runs along wires.
    The electrical code says the size of the wire increases with the load.
    The wire to the charging station is #6 AWG copper, same as a dryer or stove.
    The Lesko Brandon administration killed the Twin Metals copper-nickel mine near Ely, last year.
    The price of copper is now 4x what it was a year ago. More demand with no more production, will drive the price higher.
    A 50 roll of #6 AWG copper wire, enough to reach from the fuse box to the garage, costs $300 at Home Depot. Installation is extra.

    Henry Ford didn’t ask every buyer to install his own gas station in the family garage; the purveyors of gasoline set up the service station distribution network for consumers to use. Why are we asking consumers to have their own chargers? Why isn’t NSP setting up neighbhorhood charging stations so we can top off after work, or before leaving on a trip?

  2. jdm Avatar
    jdm

    If it’ll make you feel any different (worse, better), JD, the Lesko Brandens are also not telling/letting/encouraging utilities to produce more power either (well, except for that power from pixie dust and expeller pressed unicorn horn oil). Just because you have an outlet in the garage (fully inspected and up to code, yes?) doesn’t mean you’ll have the electrons that run through it.

  3. Mammuthus Primigenesis Avatar
    Mammuthus Primigenesis

    all of the wind and solar power generation to charge these batteries will require their own battery storage systems as well.
    The smart way to go would be to develop fuel cells powered by LNG.
    But of course we aren’t doing that.

  4. bikebubba Avatar
    bikebubba

    The thing that comes to mind for me is that carrying both reagents, oxidizer and reducer, around with your vehicle instead of just one will always have a heavy penalty in terms of weight. It’s why a Tesla sedan weighs as much as my full size SUV, just without the capability, range, and the like. And by the time that Tesla sedan might get to the miles I’ve got on my Acadia–225000 at last look–it’s time for a battery replacement.

    Add to that the damage to the roads from the extra weight and the limiited range in the winter (< 150 miles when it's 20 below, < 100 when it's 20 below and when the battery is older), and you've got a vehicle that simply does not meet my needs.

    Plus, almost all of my standard SUV is recyclable, and I don't believe anyone's figured out how to economically recycle lithium batteries yet. Oopsie. That's a lot of 55 gallon drums to be put in clay, to put it mildly.

  5. jdm Avatar
    jdm

    I didn’t really see any there there, Jeff (but you already knew that). As my moderated comment indicated where’s all this extra electricity going to come from?

  6. Joe Doakes Avatar
    Joe Doakes

    Thanks, Jeff, I missed that announcement.

    From the linked article: “The EV charging network will initially focus on interstates and “regionally significant commercial corridors” by creating “publicly accessible” charging stations that can serve medium- and heavy-duty vehicles to serve the shipping and logistics industries.”

    So, place charging stations at the existing network of Rest Stops on the Interstates and add new Rest Stops on, say, Hwy 52 to Rochester? Not bad.

    Might suck to be Mitch, living in Midway. The nearest rest stops are Maple Grove and Stillwater, but hey, the price you pay for a better Minnesota.

    I wonder how hard it would be to bypass the meter to steal electricity from a remote rest stop charging station in the middle of the night?

  7. Emery Avatar
    Emery

    By 2025, EVs are likely to have a lower sticker price than fossil fuel vehicles. There is a shift to LFP (lithium iron phosphate) batteries for all but high-end, performance EVs, so nickel and cobalt prices become pretty irrelevant. Top-end EV buyers have plenty of money and can decide on the basis of what they want, rather than how much it costs.

  8. Emery Avatar
    Emery

    Tesla is highly profitable in producing electric cars. Have a look at the most recent quarterly accounts at:
    https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/WIIG2L_TSLA_Q4_2021_Update_O7MYNE.pdf

    On page 5 it had an EBITDA margin of 21.6% for 2021. “Regulatory credits” were $1,465m out of an EBITDA of $11,621m, or 13% of profits.

    So there is absolutely no reason why the rest of the industry can’t also produce EVs profitably too.

  9. bikebubba Avatar
    bikebubba

    Regarding the claim that EVs will be cheaper than real cars, the cheapest EVs these days are at about $33k, and two years ago, I bought my VW Golf Sportwagen for $21k. Golfs today, before dealer discounts, start at $23k. To achieve parity, you’ve got to more or less get the batteries and motors for free.

    So my BubbaFactCheck rating on Emery: five steaming piles of male bovine manure. At this point, the difference in cost for an electric car vs. my real car amounts to about five years of fuel costs.

    Emery, pro tip; when you see estimates of how great things are going to be for “environmentally sound” technologies coming from advocates, double the cost and divide the benefits by five, and you’re going to be closer to the truth.

  10. Mammuthus Primigenesis Avatar
    Mammuthus Primigenesis

    So there is absolutely no reason why the rest of the industry can’t also produce EVs profitably too.
    ^^ the voice of economic ignorance. The rest of the auto industry in the US is highly unionized. Emery is literally saying that since Tesla can make and sell EV’s and make a paper profit, ANYONE (including you and me) could make and sell EV’s and make a paper profit.
    There was another post on SITD today about stupid people. The worst sort of stupid people, IMHO, are people who do not only believe that they are not stupid on some given topic, but think that they are smart about it.
    This reminds me of an article I read on some some Lefty website (Slate? Salon?) years ago about how, if Costco could make big money with a unionized work force, so could Walmart and your local dollar store.

  11. Mammuthus Primigenesis Avatar
    Mammuthus Primigenesis

    Battery tech is sketchy. When you get into high input and high output batteries material science can do only so much. Satellites still use NiCad’s because, while heavy and therefore expensive to get into orbit, they are 100% reliable and won’t catch on fire.

  12. Emery Avatar
    Emery

    Mass production is no joke. The car industry is probably the most competitive worldwide, period. It’s not that manufacturing a car is that complex, it’s that legacy manufacturers, Toyota and VW above all, are insanely efficient at it. What’s complex is being competitive at mass production.

    Tesla themselves are amateurs at manufacturing. They can’t figure out how to keep homogeneous gaps between panels or how to seal windows consistently.

    They don’t sell quality manufacturing, they sell superior marketing, software, 0-100 performance and so on. Their reliability ranking is last or second to last and their quality is therefore extremely poor.

    Anyone who has a clue about manufacturing knows that Toyota is king, basically because they invented the system, and Tesla is not even in the same league, and probably not even the same sport. Tesla’s manufacturing quality is abysmal. This is objective.

    What happens is Tesla’s customers are happy with badly built cars, whereas VW’s or Toyota’s would be very angry.

    Conventional hybrids (small batteries/low fuel use) are the short term solution. Medium term we need more public transport and to produce a lot fewer vehicles. Long term we need to stop digging things up and use what we already have or renewable resources.

    As mute author illustrates — there are a lot of people who don’t like change and want to rage against it.

  13. Blade Nzimande Avatar
    Blade Nzimande

    By 2025, EVs are likely to have a lower sticker price than fossil fuel vehicles.

    Oh…so you’ll no doubt be making adjustments to your Tesla poSItion next year, and taking fat ProFITs, right rAT?

    LMAO

  14. Blade Nzimande Avatar
    Blade Nzimande

    Mass production is no joke. The car industry is probably the most competitive worldwide, period. It’s not that manufacturing a car is that complex

    Hahahahaahaaa! 😂

    You fucking nitwit. Aside from space craft, cars are BY FAR AND AWAY the most complex things that are being manufactured today.

    I hope someone that cares is with you to remind you to chew your food thoroughly, rAT.

  15. Blade Nzimande Avatar
    Blade Nzimande

    “ Aside from space and air craft”

    FTFM

  16. bikebubba Avatar
    bikebubba

    Regarding the notion that making cars is easy, yes, the manufacturing and quality engineers have gotten it to the point where fairly low skill laborers can assemble them, but it’s worth noting that the only quality and manufacturing systems that are more complex than automotive are medical and defense. Things like geometric tolerancing were invented, more or less, for automotive applications to put together 17000 +/- parts into a vehicle. You can make a go-kart with dubious reliiability and safety easily enough, but to make a vehicle that passes muster with customers and insurers, not to mention the NHTSA, takes a bit more doing.

    Tesla has some things down like acceleration. Things that add greatly to safety, like rounding the pillars to the roof, not so much. There are certain other things where it just boggles the mind what they did–I believe at least one crash victim has died because the door handles recess into the doors and firemen couldn’t get to them. It all has a lot to do with shared experience at the companies.

  17. Emery Avatar
    Emery

    Tesla is mostly misunderstood by investors. It’s more comparable to Apple, like a hardware software fashion company than to like a traditional auto manufacturer.

    In 2016 Tesla did hire the chip design legend Jim Keller from Apple along with Steve Bannon. So basically an Apple team did run the Tesla chip design from then on. And the results are quite shocking, they are on or beyond performance levels of Intel, Nvidia.

    Regarding startups — I don’t see it how they are digging deep enough to be a major success in the range of a trillion dollar company. They will struggle to reach size and generate economies of scale.

    In terms of Tesla you could argue the car itself would be the least valuable part of the company if you break up Tesla in several companies, like Tesla chip design 500B+, Tesla AI and software 500B+, Tesla auto manufacturing 50B maybe like BMW, Tesla battery manufacturer 100B. Tesla brands 500B+ — Maybe Tesla should look into building their own FAB to make advanced microprocessors.

  18. Mammuthus Primigenesis Avatar
    Mammuthus Primigenesis

    ^^Sold everything on November 10th 2016 to avoid the Trump stock tumble that never happened.

  19. bosshoss429 Avatar
    bosshoss429

    Emery, once more you exhibit your complete ignorance via your inane posts.

    Have you ever worked on an auto assembly line or actually visited an auto assembly plant, not counting watching episodes of “How It’s Made” on TV?!

    The local Tesla dealer is a customer of mine, so in response to your uneducated statement about fit and finish, I have driven and ridden in every model they produce (at least 30 individual vehicles) over the past two years, so I can emphatically out you as a TOTAL dumb ass. Not that we didn’t know that already. Sheesh! Get out of your mommy’s basement once in awhile. The musty air down there is rotting your brain!

  20. Joe Doakes Avatar
    Joe Doakes

    “It’s not that manufacturing a car is that complex, it’s that legacy manufacturers, Toyota and VW above all, are insanely efficient at it.”

    If that were true, the Nova, Pinto and K-Car should have been at the pinnacle of automotive excellence.

  21. Emery Avatar
    Emery

    The difference between Tesla and all the new entrants is the former was started by a billionaire who wasn’t looking to get rich, he was on a mission. Most of the rest are looking at exits and a golden ticket before they’ve even started.

    I would add — there is good reason to suggest Musk is on a mission. With Tesla’s present valuation in these frothy markets he could cash out, and cash out big. All he does is sell small increments of his shares here and there to pay himself and his taxes. His primary motivation clearly isn’t ultra-wealth.

    @ bs429: Now think hard about this statistic — in 2021, the top ten EV sales and almost all of the Chinese EV market — eight were Chinese and the other two Tesla. Just about everyone in our neighborhood have transitioned to a Tesla where once they bought Mercedes, BMW or Audi. The horse had bolted my friend and it’s very difficult to restore it to it’s old stables.

    I hear a few complaints from my neighbors re Tesla quality. This is Tesla’s challenge for the main market, but part of wright’s law is that quality improves with volume.

    In fact the only serious complaint is from my very near friend and neighbor who bought a Taycan which has been back 3 times for software enhancements that they can not do remotely and the battery backup keeps failing, locking the hood and the doors and a specialist has to come out with tools and a technique to open it.

    Tesla have left incumbents in the dust for software capability and now with the Berlin Gigafactory, more advanced manufacturing. It seems even the simple things can go wrong in the wrong hands. But seriously though, the software is hugely complex and this is where the battle might be won and lost.

  22. justplainangry Avatar
    justplainangry

    Russia owns EU because EU outsourced its energy dependence to Russia. And now basically entire world, led by US ignoramuses is outsourcing operation of the Bartertown valve to China vis-a-vis minerals demand. What can go wrong?

  23. Emery Avatar
    Emery

    Take a look at this history about the Urengoy–Pomary–Uzhhorod pipeline from Wiki:

    “The Soviet plans to build the pipeline [in 1984] were strongly opposed by the Reagan administration. Americans were afraid that Western Europe would become dependent on the Soviet gas supplies, giving an energy leverage to the Soviet Union. They also feared the Kremlin would use the export revenue for military purposes.”

    Funny that.

  24. justplainangry Avatar
    justplainangry

    The smart way to go would be to develop fuel cells powered by LNG.
    But of course we aren’t doing that.

    You are dead wrong MP, and Jeff’s post, although right on the money as far as storage battery-type electrical vehicles is concerned, completely ignores current state of electrical vehicle evolution. One that will see ALL EV charging stations being obsolete before they are put in service. The biggest boond0ggle since the LRT, but one that electrical generating and distribution companies are lobbying for.

    Ever heard of Hydrogen folks? The most abundant molecule in the universe? If you want to catch up, search for “blue hydrogen”. It can be used in hydrogen cells to generate electricity to drive electric cars. Refueling (currently) takes 15 minutes and range is proportional to the size of the cell and comparable to ICE cars. Exhaust is pure H20. With recent advances in plastics, fuel cells are as safe, if not safer, than an LPG tank. H2 as fuel is absolutely THE hottest thing on the energy market with huge investment by most legacy dino companies. There are H2 filling stations being built RIGHT NOW, including in the US. There is a huge network already in Japan to support cars like Toyota Mirai and Honda Clarity which have been out for years. ALL major car manufacturers are working on H2 fuel cell EV’s. So no, MP, development is indeed going full steam ahead, just in a different direction.

    Musk, for all his bluster, is not a dummy and his gigantic investment in Twitter maybe his way to diversify from Tesla. Because when everyone has an EV, Tesla will no longer be special and people just won’t put up with the shitty quality they get for their money.

  25. Blade Nzimande Avatar
    Blade Nzimande

    ^^Sold everything on November 10th 2016 to avoid the Trump stock tumble that never happened.

    But he took huge ProFItz, MP…HUGE.

    He’s a fucking legend among the reality based, BIrkiE community in Hayward, WI.

  26. Blade Nzimande Avatar
    Blade Nzimande

    Take a look at this history about the Urengoy–Pomary–Uzhhorod pipeline from Wiki

    JFC…and to think we wondered why rAT was shy about revealing the sources of his plagiarized comments. What a fucking idiot.

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