Shot in the Dark

What The Hell Is Wrong With The Minnesota GOP?

After the September 11, 2001 attacks, the US military was faced with a challenge unlike any they’d faced, ever; how to root out and depose a government that was providing a safe haven for the terrorists that had launched the 9/11 attacks?

Attacking Afghanistan, the mountanous anarchic home of peoples who’d been warring with each other since the Stone Age, dominated by people who put the “war” in “warlord”, was a formidable challenge. In theory, it was all the more so given that in the previous decade the US military had downsized precipitously; of the eighteen ground combat divisions in service at the end of the Cold War scarcely a decade earlier, we were down to ten on 9/11.

Our response? The US Special Forces (the “Green Berets”) airdropped several detachments of soldiers – fewer than 100 men, initially – into Afghanistan, along with some CIA paramilitaries. Using their primary strengths – flexibility, cultural and language skills and a cultivated ability to think outside the box in life-and-death situations – they made contact with the Northern Alliance (the guerrillas, not the radio show), hatched a plan, and went on the offensive. Using weapons both bleeding-edge (laser designators for guiding bombs in from orbiting aircraft, GPS systems, radios) and timeless (exceptional fieldcraft skills, mastery of small-unit tactics, bravery), those 80-odd men, riding horseback, led the Northern Alliance to, over and after the Taliban, routing them to and out of their main strongholds, and toppling their government in weeks – sometimes by bringing in B1s to carpet-bomb Taliban attacks, sometimes leading the Northern Alliance by example, closing in and rooting the Taliban out themselves with rifles and grenades.

One of the keys to this stunning victory? The Special Forces operators had boundless power, right there on the scene. A Master Sergeant with a designator and a radio could call almost directly to the Air Force, orbiting high above in their F16s and B52s and AC130s (and yes, Fingers, the Navy and Marines in their FA18s as well) and get air support on the scene in moments. He did not have to file a request with his headquarters, to be bounced up through higher echelons of approval and then back down the Air Force’s chain of command, hours or days or weeks too late too do any good.

Robert Kaplan in Imperial Grunts, writing three years after the stunning victory, noted that the Special Forces’ approach was not unlike that of a good, bleeding-edge company that decentralized the power – and the decision-making and tools that enabled and supported that power – down and out through the organization. For the liberation of Afghanistan, the military did the unthinkable; pushed power downward from the Pentagon, down from CENTCOM, down from the higher-level headquarters in the ‘Stans, down to the three-man teams of Green Berets and their Air Controllers in the field; it short-circuited layers, and generations, of bureacracy, moving the decision loop down as close to the sergeants in the field, and the pilots in the air, as has ever been done.

Of course, decentralization is a hothouse flower even in lean, limber corporations; in the military – the most hidebound bureaucracy of all (and often for good reason), it was even more so. As the Taliban fell, “Big Army” came in, imposing the bureaucracy and chains of command and all manner of (to the Green Berets’ perspective, as related by Kaplan) impedimenta, including, most disastrously, requirements for multiple levels of approvals and accountability for every mission plan. This (say the Green Berets Kaplan interviewed) bogged down the pursuit of many of the Taliban and Al Quaeda hiding underground, leading us eventually to the situation we have today.

0f course, I’m not here to write about the liberation of Afghanistan. I’m writing about the Minnesota GOP.

But there’s a parallel dynamic at work, here. Empowered, motivated people with the right tools can do the impossible.
———-

The Minnesota GOP is all a-froth in the process of selecting a new chair and leadership. It’s getting ugly out there, with people bagging on the current leadership and their associates, and the current leadership bagging right back.

I’m not going to bag on personalities. This isn’t about personalities (yet). This is about structure.

The GOP is a very top-down organization. Everything from “message” to the tools of the job – databases, voter lists and the like – flow or are mandated from the national office, down through the states, and finally down to the BPOU level.

“Well,that’s as is should be”, the party apologist will say; “the people who show up and work for the party should have the final say on things”.

Which makes sense, sort of. But it also gives conventions from the Congressional District level on up a sense that delegates are spectators at the Central Committee’s event -that all the real decisions were made months before. And when you live in a district that hasn’t put any winners on the board in years, it’s not hard to think maybe it’s time for new decision-makers.

Which we got, to an extent, last spring, as the Ron Paul candidacy sent ripples of panic through the MNGOP leadership. Make no mistake – Ron Paul is a nutcase. But his followers – at least the ones that weren’t awash in 9/11 truthiness and rambling on about Trans-American Freeways for hours on end – brought something to GOP caucuses and convos that they’ve needed for years; the sense that parts of the event were unscripted. Time will tell if the Ronulans will stick around the caucuses. I hope they do – which isn’t to say I’m not going to try to talk them into keeping the libertarian-conservative principles, but ditching Paul himself.

The GOP, nationwide and in Minnesota, needs to learn from its mistakes, to decentralize its thinking, and most of all get better at doing its job.

It needs to reward initiative; it needs to seek out, reward, cultivate and channel ideas and energy that come from outside the party’s bureaucracy, rather than getting paranoid about them.

Being this state’s genuine big tent party, it needs to come up with a way to get its message out, without turning on and eating carriers of other messages. It needs to focus on the parts the party agrees on, rather than ripping itself to shreds over the things it doesn’t.

And on the other hand, I say this as a fire-breathing Reagan conservative; it’s time for conservatives to grow up and play the damn game. The Ron Paul phenomenon can teach us all one thing; for decades, Libertarians sat with their feet firmly in the clouds and declaimed from a position of absolute ideological purity. Finally, they wised up, got into the game, organized, played to their strengths (and the MNGOP’s weaknesses) and came withing a trice of taking over the party’s agenda. Minnesota’s conservatives did the opposite, turning out in droves for the state caucuses and getting Mitt Romney endorsed, but then taking their toys and going home. They were underwhelmed with John McCain, Norm Coleman and Tim Pawlenty; their fit of pique helped doom the party in the last eletion cycle, and weakened the state and the nation. And in so doing, Minnesota’s conservatives weakened themselves and their cause, making Minnesota conservatives look like flighty, temperamental prima-donnas. Gary Gross calls this pathology out in one of the most timely political posts of the year so far. Politics, down to the root of the word itself, is about compromise; the art is in making the compromise as favorable to you as possible.

The Minnesota GOP faces yet another difficult situation in the next two years. And it’s a battle we have to win, because the stakes are this state’s future and the well-being of the nation itself. The DFL is the party of instant gratification, of taxing and spending and the tyranny of institutional compassion. This state needs a viable opposition like Afghanistan needed dead Taliban.

And Minnesota Republicans should take courage – and knowledge – from that lesson; empowered, motivated people with the right tools can do the impossible.

What does that mean for the GOP? We’ll talk about that in the coming weeks.

[NOTE: While this blog is as a general rule an untrammeled free-speech zone, this particular comment thread is mainly for Republicans talking about the future of the GOP in Minnesota and elsewhere. Non-Republican posts, especially snarks, are likely to get lost down the memory hole. Non-Republican snarkers are a free as ever to romp and play elsewhere on this site; this thread is for the grownups.]


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49 responses to “What The Hell Is Wrong With The Minnesota GOP?”

  1. Master of None Avatar

    “databases, voter lists and the like – flow or are mandated from the national office, down through the states, and finally down to the BPOU level.”

    I’ve seen strong push back on this. Or, at least, individual candidates abandon Voter Vault, and create their own databases. I’ve heard this is pretty common. I’m hoping to get deeply involved in this area in the upcoming months.

    BPOU’s need to be experiment and then share results and tactics at the operative level.

  2. Mr. D Avatar

    There’s so much to pick at here. You are right about the key issue – the changes need to be systemic. Still, we can’t overlook the crying need for some new leaders. We could drop Carey tomorrow but not much would change unless we change the operating philosophy of the GOP. We’re going to have to do both things to beat the DFL.

    If you want to look at the issue in microcosm, a good place to start would be the recent race between Jim Schottmuller and Tony Bennett for the seat on the Ramsey County board. Bennett has been a face of the GOP up here for years, but it’s a tired and compromised face. Jim came into the process this cycle and really shook things up. Energetic, intelligent and committed guys like Jim are the future of the GOP. Jim lost narrowly to Bennett but is staying involved, running a new blog that will serve as a clearinghouse for new ideas and a source for those who are interested in following Ramsey County politics. We need people like this who not only believe in the ideals of limited government but also understand how to use modern communication tools.

  3. Chuck Avatar
    Chuck

    I agree with what you have said several times…..instead of putting 90% of total effort into statewide races (President, US Senate, then congrssional candidates), we need to start at the bottom and work up.

    The left is very good at organizing on all levels. Even in the workplace. My employer has an enviromental group that shows global warming movies at work (imagine a pro-life group trying to show “Silient Scream” at the workplace). A gay-rights group that hangs the rainbow flag up in common areas (can I hang the official Lutheran flag up various areas around here?). The bad side of this is that it reflects the left politicizing everything, and I’m not sure we want to do that.

  4. Cindy W Avatar
    Cindy W

    One thing I would suggest is that the BPOUs and the state party need to work together instead of against one another. As a former BPOU chair, I would get so frustrated when our BPOU would try to do something to help our candidates only to have the state bureaucracy come in and try to squash it. Likewise, I offered assistance many times to my fellow BPOU chairs (I was thankfully the chair of a very red district) in not so red districts only to be rebuffed for trying to “invade” their turf.

    Party Leadership needs to be give the local units more latitude. I have not WORKED for organizations that gave so little empowerment to the individual local “branches” and I work in telecom which is a control freaks heaven!

    I echo MON and Chuck with the sentiment that it has to be a bottom up organization. The way that the MNGOP treats its volunteers guarantees no one will get involved except for the truly hardcore politicos.

    LL

  5. Mr. D Avatar

    I re-read Gary’s piece and while I agree with a lot of it, it does raise a question – how “Big Tent” do we want to be?

    I understand why Gary objects to what Sue Jeffers said about Mr. Gottwalt, who certainly seems stalwart enough to me, even though I agree with Sue about the smoking ban vote. But here’s the question; it’s one thing to allow a difference of opinion on some issues, but then you have to ask: should conservatives have opposed Erhardt, Peterson and the rest of the al-Sturdevant Martyrs Brigade over their override votes? If you extend that logic that Jeffers was out of bounds in criticizing Gottwalt, were we out of bounds in criticizing (and going after) Erhardt?

    How do we draw these distinctions? After all, clearly we did. Do we let some Big Government depredations slide? And if so, which ones?

    We surely need to have that conservation, no?

  6. Kermit Avatar
    Kermit

    More hot chicks wouldn’t hurt.

  7. Master of None Avatar

    “how “Big Tent” do we want to be?”

    My quick answer? 51%, nothing less.

  8. Chad The Elder Avatar

    Actually Kermit I’m usually impressed by the “talent” that you see at the larger conventions and events.

    The problem I see from a BPOU level is that the control is top down while the resources (people, $) are bottom up. The partly tells the BPOUs what they can and can’t do, but when the BPOUs ask for help of any kind, they’re usually told the shelves are bare.

    What the party needs to do is set up templates for the BPOUs to follow (web sites, fundraising, organizing, etc.), but then allow the BPOUs the autonomy to operate more freely within those templates. The party should also establish a sort of SWAT team (or A-Team to follow your Green Beret analogy) that can be sent in to shore up struggling BPOUs. They would come in for a short period of time to assist (not control) the BPOU in getting its house in order. Once that was done and the BPOU was able to stand on its own, they would leave for the next trouble spot. This would seem to be a effective and efficient way for the party to use its precious resources and have a multiplying impact across BPOUs.

  9. Chad The Elder Avatar

    That should be “party” not “partly” in the second ‘graph. I regret the error.

  10. gmg425 Avatar

    Let me address the ‘Big Tent’ issue. I’ll fight every minute of every day for conservative principles because I strongly believe that they make the most sense. PERIOD.

    I don’t think that’s at odds with saying that regaining the majority with 60 rock-solid conservatives & 8 squishies. Regaining the majority that governs via conservative principles is a VERY POSITIVE THING!!!

    Simply by having the majority, we entrust Marty Seifert with what bills get hearings, which bills don’t see the light of day. In addition, it allows us to go on the offensive. I don’t think it’s a stretch to think that most conservatives are tired of defending our side of the 50 yard line. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that conservatives would love putting the DFL on the defensive.

    Would I love a House GOP majority with 70+ rock-solid conservatives? Definitely. Do I demand that the GOP hold fast to its principles? Yup. Do I think it’s settling or abandoning one’s principles if we regain the majority with 58 conservatives & 10 squishies? Not one bit.

  11. Master of None Avatar

    “The party should also establish a sort of SWAT team ”

    We desperately need this for special elections.

  12. J. Ewing Avatar
    J. Ewing

    Thanks for a great post, restoring my faith that there are some tiny outposts of sanity within both the ‘conservative movement’ and the GOP. The problem is this: Everybody wants it their own way. Let a leader, a candidate, or elected official do one little thing that somebody doesn’t like and we cannot do anything else until that person is firmly scrunched under the bus. The Democrats have no such problem. The unions, environuts, gays and the Christian left, blacks, feminists, and covens all turn out with the single goal of electing whomever the Party sees fit to nominate. After the election, they all go back to their own little agenda, thank goodness, but that leaves Republicans out of power, wandering around wondering what just happened.

    We all want to “advance the conservative agenda.” What that agenda is, exactly, which candidate is best able to advance it, and how we organize ourselves to get that candidate elected are all decisions to be made by the widest possible group of interested parties. AFTER those decisions are made we need to quit griping and get with the program. Better luck next time at convincing the rest of us of your brilliance. The Paulites had some great ideas. Grab the ones that work and move on.

  13. Kermit Avatar
    Kermit

    Well put, J. The main problem the GOP has is identity. You have the hard core cons vs. the pragmatic centrists. The cons have principle, but the centrists are more in line with the general population. That’s why “squishy” Republicans can get elected (Bachmann and Kline being exceptions).

  14. swiftee Avatar
    swiftee

    “The partly tells the BPOUs what they can and can’t do, but when the BPOUs ask for help of any kind, they’re usually told the shelves are bare. ”

    Man, you have no idea how true that is until you’ve tried to run for office in Saint Paul. And if the party has decided your district isn’t worth any effort at all, the shelves are not just bereft of cash, there isn’t even a volunteer list up there for you.

    I don’t think that conservative leadership is lacking, people like Sue Jeffers and Michele Bachmann are not all that uncommon.

    The problem, as I see it, is that the party needs to provide the resources to help these excellent candidates better frame their messages so that the Democrats have a harder time distorting the message the squishy center hears.

    I really haven’t heard anything Michele Bachmann has ever said that I disagree with, but I have to admit I’ve cringed more than once at the way she’s explained herself.

  15. Mitch Berg Avatar
    Mitch Berg

    Andy Aplikowski put it well the other day – and I hope he writes a piece on the subject. To paraphrase him:

    There’s a social conservative agenda. There’s a fiscal conservative agenda. There are prolife, tax-hawk, education, growth and crime/security agendas. And there’s a pragmatic agenda.

    What supporters of each agenda need to do is work on convincing the unconvinced, and winning enough of them to advance their agenda, of course.

    But the party needs, first and foremost, to find the things that everyone agrees on, close ranks around them, and – once the caucuses and conventions are over – unite. For real. People in the party need to work to make the party reflect their agenda – and then, when it’s time to elect candidates, to realize that the party DOES reflect their agenda better than the other party does, and to work for the party’s candidates, warts and disagreements and all.

  16. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    I would break down the current GOP coalition differently than Mitch does.
    Social conservatives, nationalists, and pro-business conservatives.
    The Wall Street conservatives can go screw themselves as far as I’m concerned.

  17. Chad The Elder Avatar

    That’s the spirit Terry. With an attitude like that we’ll be back in power in no time. Forty maybe fifty years tops.

  18. Badda Avatar

    If I may use a Blazing Saddles quote…

    What Terry is saying is that, “We’ll give some land to the niggers and the chinks, but we don’t want the Irish.

    Terry, think of it this way… it isn’t as if the Wall Street conservatives are like Peev. They might just listen to what you say and come ’round to your way of thinking.

  19. Badda Avatar

    If the high-level statewide folks want to run the party they way they have for the last umpteen years… let ’em.

    As some folks suggest (and Jason Lewis included), start focusing on city councils, mayors, school boards… low-level revolution. Ground-up movement.

    Unfortuantely, it appears that this strategy takes just as much work… and the successes are not necessarily seen far and wide. It’s hard to build a movement. Getting other folks to engage isn’t easy… politics is boring, takes time, and involves you with strange folks.

    Plus it takes time away from whatever your geeky hobbies might be.

  20. Chuck Avatar
    Chuck

    Grover Norquist says that if you are a one kind of small gov’t consverative and don’t like the other kind of small gov’t conservative, you don’t kick them out. You try to get more of your type in.

    I think he said that on a NARN program.

  21. thorleywinston Avatar

    I agree with Mitch regarding the importance of rallying behind the endorsed candidate in the general election after you’ve tried to move the coalition in your preferred direction during the caucuses and primary. I disagreed with Senator Coleman on a number of issues and at one point was pretty sure I wouldn’t vote to reelect him but on Election Day, I didn’t want to see a Democrat president with a filibuster-proof Senate. Considering how close the election turned out, I’m glad I voted as I did.

    As far labeling people within the GOP coalition, labels can be useful as an identification purpose but I think when people (over)use them as a vehicle for excluding or demonizing others, they become a substitute for critical thinking. People usually have reasons for their policy preferences which may be good or bad depending on your POV and rarely do they fit so neatly into whatever little boxes others seek to put them in.

    To echo what Badda wrote, if you meet someone at your BPOU or other event and you start discussing politics and find that they disagree with you on an issue that’s important to you, do you (a) politely ask them to better explain how they reached a different conclusion than you did or (b) start to mentally place them into a preconstructed box reserved for those you despise?

  22. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    It is the Wall Street Republicans who bless bailing out financial houses but not blue collar union workers. It is the Wall Street Republicans that make the open-borders movement bi-partisan. It is the Wall Street Republicans who measure their patriotism on a balance sheet.
    Yep, kowtow to those guys. That’s the path to power. Worked great so far, hasn’t it?

  23. Lassie Avatar

    GREAT post and comments. Chad mentioned website templates earlier and I see why so many ditched the GOP template (they don’t offer it any more). Chief and I put up our SD45 website instead of MNGOP’s because it was hard to use and crappy. We used Joomla, and I set up CD-5’s site in the same template last year. I’d love to see MNGOP offer another template for districts who haven’t the web designer resources like we have in 45, but use a better, more modern model.

    For outreach, we have monthly social coffee meets at a local bagel shop. We’ve enjoyed a growing number of folks showing up (many just happy to know they’re not alone!). We are also planning a “low-level revolution” in our cities this year.

  24. swiftee Avatar
    swiftee

    “As some folks suggest (and Jason Lewis included), start focusing on city councils, mayors, school boards… low-level revolution. Ground-up movement.”

    Bingo.

    If you look at office holders in Ramsey and Hennepin counties, how many came up through the Democrat ranks from school boards?

    Maybe 1/2 of them.

    And, if you actually care about what’s happening to the public schools (like I do), you can actually have a positive effect on your neighborhoods while earning the necessary cred.

    Tom Conlon has held a seat in the St. Paul school district for 10 years. He isn’t able to actually have any impact, but he does prove the the “R” label is not necessarilly a non-starter if the public is approached with a conservative message that is properly constructed.

  25. Chad The Elder Avatar

    Terry-

    I’m not sure who these “Wall Street Conservatives” you demagogically refer to are, but if you’re delusional if think that you’ve got any chance of attracting enough voters to win elections by kicking free market, free trade, low tax Republicans to the curb. Focusing on social issues and national security alone is going to get you around 30-35% of the electorate tops.

    Frankly, I don’t like trying to divide the party up into these coalitions and subgroups. I’m a pro-life, pro-marriage, low tax, small government, free trading fiscal conservative hawk. So which group do I get put into?

  26. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    How does this definition of a Wall Street Republican work?
    A person who is politically active but doesn’t care about social issues (at least not as far politics are concerned) and doesn’t see any difference (again as far as politics go) between the interests of business and the interests of the United States.
    The template is Alan Greenspan.
    On a smaller scale it is every businessman who votes Republican primarily because the GOP will give him a greater opportunity to make money.
    Their numbers aren’t large in terms of votes but they have an outsized influence in internal GOP politics.

  27. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    Chad The Elder-
    No matter who the GOP candidate is my vote will not make a difference. I will be damned if I will vote to cut my own throat. What, exactly, are my wages for backing the GOP? As a working person in a tech field who makes good, but not great money, how has free trade and open immigration helped me?
    I’m not being self-centred, at least not purposely. I imagine that there are a lot of middle-class conservatives in the same spot that I am. What interests do I have in common with pure economic conservatives?

  28. flash Avatar

    *please don’t pick nits if I slipped in a partisan poke, I just wanted to give a sincere perception from my perspective*

    = = =

    “”Being this state’s genuine big tent party, it needs to come up with a way to get its message out, without turning on and eating carriers of other messages. It needs to focus on the parts the party agrees on, rather than ripping itself to shreds over the things it doesn’t.””

    Which is why people like me, who over the years may have even moved Right of Center (Pro WoT, Support of Public funding of Private education, Pro 2nd amendment, anti Smoking ban, free trade, anti bailout, etc.) simply doesn’t feel welcome. The extremists of the party have banished people like me into a liberal purgatory. But that isn’t necessarily bad, because within the DFL I am welcome, I am heard, and I feel relevant

    “Minnesota’s conservatives weakened themselves and their cause, making Minnesota conservatives look like flighty, temperamental prima-donnas.”

    Seriously, the MDE’s of the world are becoming the face of the MNGOP and that is turning off Minnesotans for sure, and maybe others over the nation. Coleman could have handily won this race with a positive approach and discussion of his successes. He could have grabbed the disenfranchised middle by talking about his efforts to save the Community Development Block Grants. But he was forced to shed his RINO skin to appease the base, while losing the middle in the process. One thing the Left has always been good at is forgiving their candidates during the election cycle, then beating them up once in office.

    I agree, I think Gary hit the nail on the head, and if there was even the beginning of the movement to be a big tent party, I mean actually accepting people who may not commit to toe the line, you will see movement. But just saying it is not reality.

    Kermit, as someone who attends all three major party gatherings every election year, the talent at the GOP party is always #1.

    “”The centrists are more in line with the general population.””

    That is why the MNGOP is where it is at today, you can’t win without the middle, or at least enough of the middle to get the majority/plurality to win.

    “”if you meet someone at your BPOU or other event and you start discussing politics and find that they disagree with you on an issue that’s important to you, do you (a) politely ask them to better explain how they reached a different conclusion than you did or (b) start to mentally place them into a preconstructed box reserved for those you despise?”

    My experiences are pretty clear, Democrats choose route A), and Republicans Route B). When I challenged Franken on his war stance, he didn’t pfft me, he laid out a clear and concise arguments as to why he believed the way he did. But when I try to defend Social programs with a Republican, I am called a loony liberal, tax and spender, and we never get off the ground regarding any type of give and take. It is a their way or the highway attitude.

    On my bulletin board at work, along with my pictures of the family, and photos ops with political dignitaries, hangs Mitch’s tug of war analogy article from The Patriot magazine. (Similar to this post) As I close in on a half century of chronological experience, I feel like the ribbon on the rope

    You may all think of me is a looney far left liberal, but in reality I am taking MItch’s advice here, just that, for now, I have chosen the other team. Once the roster is set, I defend them, almost unconditionally and fight for them till the end. In the case of the Senate race, the end isn’t even here yet. But other than that, here is your opportunity to move that ribbon, and not do it with the brute force that involved the Tug of War, but with gentle nudges and open/honest debate.

    You’ll never get people in your party who may not agree with you on all the issues, if you keep slamming the door in their face, while sliming them in the process.

    Flash

  29. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    “One thing the Left has always been good at is forgiving their candidates during the election cycle, then beating them up once in office.”

    Joe Lieberman.
    His support of the GWOT made the Dem base hate him. But then we have your word, Flash, that Coleman didn’t dare endorse CDBG because the vicious GOP base would have eaten him alive.

  30. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    “My experiences are pretty clear, Democrats choose route A), and Republicans Route B). When I challenged Franken on his war stance, he didn’t pfft me, he laid out a clear and concise arguments as to why he believed the way he did. But when I try to defend Social programs with a Republican, I am called a loony liberal, tax and spender, and we never get off the ground regarding any type of give and take.”

    Flash, please. Franken is a wannabe politician. You dodged and did not mention the specific Republican or republicans who called you a loony liberal.
    You like to think of yourself as objective, I believe. Suppose you asked Coleman to defend his opposition to stem cell research. Do you think the response you would get would get “clear and concise arguments as to why he believed the way he did”?
    Now imagine yourself defending the GWOT to an ANSWER type.
    Get my point?

  31. flash Avatar

    Terry, he did endorse, he led the charge, and formed a coalition of moderate GOPers to buck the President and see it preserved.

    http://tinyurl.com/8qbvv5

    My point was, he could have, dang it, SHOULD HAVE, touted this in the face of all those accusations of being President Bush’s lapdog by showing the people that wasn’t the case. But he didn’t. He only SAID he wasn’t without laying out specific examples. I contend that was because of the potential backlash from a base that already felt he was a RINO. It just may have cost him the election.

    The irony is I never even knew this until today, when someone on the MN-Pol group, a Democrat at that, pointed it out. Something like that I should have learned from the candidate who wanted my moderate vote during the cycle.

    Flash

  32. flash Avatar

    “Flash, please. Franken is a wannabe politician. You dodged and did not mention the specific Republican or republicans who called you a loony liberal.”

    You come here enough to know how often I am pigeon holed into the loony left category. I can see how using Franken as an example would imply I may have been referring to candidates, and that was not my intention, mea culpa. But it is the the general feel I get when talking with Dems who I disagree with vs Reps I disagree with.

  33. penigma Avatar

    [EDITOR:  Off-topic (and singularly unperceptive) comment euthanized]

  34. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    Well, Flash, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
    I don’t see any difference at all in the level of civility shown political opponents. Numbers may be a different matter. I believe that the most uncivil responses come from those who do not have to deal with people of another political persuasion. Perhaps it is because I live in a very blue state but it seems to me that those people tend to be on the left.

  35. Kevin Avatar

    I like to think that CD2 is the start of a success story. As a CD we’ve largely decided to break ranks with the state party and forge out on our own.

    We’ve abandoned Voter Vault and started Katie Vault which has been a huge improvement.

    We’ve abandoned the paltry excuses for a website and started to come up with a template for BPOUs within our ranks. But first we talked about what sort of data is important to each BPOU so that we can develop standards to make sharing information and data between BPOUs or even the CD much easier.

    We have a lot of work to do but it’ll be worth it. And I can’t help but think this is the sort of thing that a state party SHOULD be doing.

  36. Mr. D Avatar

    Penigma,

    We’re talking about the future of the Republican Party in Minnesota and you’re talking about the past, off-topic, as usual, while nursing a grudge about something or other, as usual. And you chafe at Mitch’s suggestion that this discussion be limited to adults. Something to consider — one of the hallmarks of adulthood is to have the common courtesy to stay on topic.

    Meanwhile, Flash opines:

    You’ll never get people in your party who may not agree with you on all the issues, if you keep slamming the door in their face, while sliming them in the process.

    Just a thought, good sir — if you’d spend less time sliming people, your prescriptions might have a little more credibility. You say you support the litany of causes you mention (WoT, anti-smoking ban, etc). Perhaps you do. But it’s an assertion that is belied by the comments you make that I see all over the political blogs. Most of the time if a comment bears your moniker, it’s snark, snark, snark. I can only judge what I see and what I see is a partisan who has been moving left, not right, in the past year. Maybe you’ll move right in 2009, now that it’s not an election year and the opportunity to joust is lessened. We’d all welcome it.

    Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this topic, Mitch. We have work to do, but there is an opportunity to use the time in the wilderness wisely. Getting our ducks in a row is an excellent start.

  37. Kermit Avatar
    Kermit

    Kermit, as someone who attends all three major party gatherings every election year, the talent at the GOP party is always #1.
    Thanks, Flash. I may have to apply for delegate status.

    Republican Grownup – oxymoron – and basely insulting of course besides.
    On behalf of adults and the sane everywhere, fuck you Peev. You are the last person on Earth to estimate maturity. Douche.

  38. Kermit Avatar
    Kermit

    Good call, editor. You may strike my profanity.

  39. Dave Thul Avatar

    Interesting comment thread. I’ve heard many of the same comments at my local VFW as they discuss how to bring in new members and stay active in the community.

  40. Troy Avatar

    Terry said:

    “What interests do I have in common with pure economic conservatives?”

    You want businesses in your country to be successful?

  41. angryclown Avatar
    angryclown

    [EDITOR:  Oh, c’mon.  I did warn y’all.  And Swiftee DID run for school board – and, his online persona aside, it was a sharp, well-thought-out (and, naturally, controversial) campaign.  Seriously – this thread stays on topic.  Serious.]

  42. swiftee Avatar
    swiftee

    As the economy worsens, the best thing the GOP can do for the citizens and the party is to expose the direct and undeniable link between the financial disaster and CRA, Freddie, Fannie and the Democrats, including Clinton that misused those tools to push their socialist agenda.

    In fact, one of the few bright spots in GWB’s tenure is the fact that he saw the disaster coming and tried to do something about it.

    Many people are going to be losing their jobs. This is where the GOP can highlight our best principles. As Obama spends us into oblivion, the average joe and jane must be reminded constantly that the trillions are not having any effect…because they wont.

  43. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    “You want businesses in your country to be successful? ”
    I want schools in my country to be successful. That doesn’t mean that I should form a political alliance with the teachers union. Our goals are not the same.
    As a worker that goes double for the business lobby. A business has people whose job it is to eliminate workers jobs or reduce workers’ wages & benefits. Why in the world would I consider business an ally?
    At one time business could say that it all worked out in my favor in the end — that while my wages might be capped at the rate of inflation, my investments, thanks to pro-business policies, were growing at double the rate of inflation.
    Looks like that was a lie.

  44. Chad The Elder Avatar

    Who do you want to create jobs, business or government? There’s no jobs fairy out there.

    It sounds like some bad personal experiences have soured you on business as a whole. Your claim that “a business has people whose job it is to eliminate workers jobs or reduce workers’ wages & benefits” is silly. Companies want to control costs, increase revenues and productivity to realize profits. If your job isn’t contributing in some way to the company’s bottom line, why should they employ you?

    If you don’t like the wages you’re getting, then I suggest you get another job or go into a different field. You seem to have an attitude of a victim who’s just a helpless cog in a big corporate machine.

    As to your investments, no one is ever guaranteed anything. If you don’t want risk, don’t put your money in the market. The recent downturn has hit everyone, but over the long haul returns on the stock market do outperform inflation.

    The real bottom line is as with political systems, no economic system is perfect. But over history, even with all its flaws and warts, democracy is the best political system we have. Likewise, free market capitalism (including free trade) is not perfect. There are always going to be people and industries who will face painful economic situations (which we have to do our best to alleviate), but in the long run for the society as a whole free market capitalism is going to provide the most opportunities for success for the most people. Every alternative course that has been tried has ended in disaster and resulted in not only less economic freedom, but less political and personal freedom as well.

  45. Mr. D Avatar

    in the long run for the society as a whole free market capitalism is going to provide the most opportunities for success for the most people. Every alternative course that has been tried has ended in disaster and resulted in not only less economic freedom, but less political and personal freedom as well.

    And this never changes. Well said.

  46. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    Chad, you seem to think I’m bitter about about my employment. In fact I have one of the best jobs a fellow can get without going into management or business for himself.
    I’m merely being realistic. There are very, very few jobs like mine, and there are getting to be fewer all the time.
    Pro-business is not the same as pro-american or pro-worker. You say that “a business has people whose job it is to eliminate workers jobs or reduce workers’ wages & benefits” is silly. It is also true.
    Chad, suppose you had a a kid — a son — who wasn’t cut out for college and had an average IQ and an average amount of ambition. What does the American private sector offer him? A lifetime of occasional employment with no benefits making the mid-30’s every year of his life?
    Their are a lot more people like the example I’ve given than there are brilliant, ambitious guys. There are as many people that are below the median in any category as there are above the median. As an American and as a conservative the people in the middle and on the left side of the bell curve concern me. Business interests don’t give a damn about them because all they care about is the bottom line.

  47. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    Chad — Just to be clear — Capitalism is the least worst economic system the world has ever produced. That still doesn’t mean that it is a good system. It certainly does not mean that the more we embrace free enterprise, as individuals or as a society, the better off we’ll be.

  48. angryclown Avatar
    angryclown

    Terry mused: “Chad, suppose you had a a kid — a son — who wasn’t cut out for college and had an average IQ and an average amount of ambition. What does the American private sector offer him?”

    Swiftee went into the military.

  49. Plymouth Mike Avatar
    Plymouth Mike

    Interesting post, also lots of good comments. There is more wrong than getting beat on the technology front as some of the commenter’s pointed out. With this election the Democrats are going to try and end the Republican Party’s relevance. Bring back the fairness doctrine and try to stack the deck permanently against us. But they have an Achilles heel. It’s always been there, but Republicans have not defeated it yet. That is “class warfare”, it is the center pole of the Democrat tent. It is also our central issue. Win that issue and we go a long way to beating the Democrats and making them the permanent minority party. They are such hypocrites on this issue too. The idea that some people think that they have a right to go into another person’s pocket, steal money, then go give it to someone else and pat themselves on the back for being such a benevolent person. It’s outrageous and needs to be confronted. This is a shameful thing that’s gone on for a very long time and it’s akin, in nature, to the civil rights issue. Liberals shamed a majority of white people into giving up their racist attitudes and we need to shame a majority of Americans that it is wrong to steal, even if you have the law on your side such as income tax law, it’s just like Plessy V. Ferguson and segregation. We need a “think tank” that focus groups liberals to find out what arguments resonate and change liberal thinking on class warfare. Then we need to use that knowledge to educate our friends and neighbors.

    One thing that has worked for me when I’m talking to liberals is ask them if they believe in equality, you know, like one man (person) one vote? They then say yes, of course they do. Then I ask them, So when it comes to taxes why are some people more equal than others? Then watch the wheels turn in their head. Not to mention that tax law violates the equal protection clause in the Constitution, especially when you consider outcome.

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