Shot in the Dark

The Matrix: In your back seat.

Sure enough. As predicted, black boxes in cars will be required in all motor vehicles by 2012.

The device can be used by the manufacturer to determine if the car was abused in the case of warranty issues (fair enough) but can also be used by attorneys or law enforcement to gather data that “can and will be used against you in a court of law” (no thanks).

A Florida man named Scott Weires (who is an attorney incidentally – JR) has canceled the order for his long-awaited Nissan GT-R. Why? It’s not that he was disappointed in the car’s performance credentials, far from it. The problem is that the GT-R is equipped with a ‘black box’, similar in theory to the kind found on airplanes to help determine what went wrong in case of an accident or breakdown. By the end of 2012, car buyers won’t have a choice as to whether their new car is equipped with a ‘black box,’ or Electronic Data Recorder — they will be federally mandated to carry one.

Florida man cancels Nissan GT-R order due to ‘black box’ 

That’s at least one consumer voting with his checkbook. No word yet on whether the devices will be defeatable.

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22 responses to “The Matrix: In your back seat.”

  1. Kermit Avatar
    Kermit

    Yet another reason to buy used.

  2. Mr. Shirt Avatar
    Mr. Shirt

    I really try to avoid cars newer than 1996. But as they get older, keeping them running becomes too big of a project.

    It would void the warrantee, but If I end up with one of these cars, the box comes OUT!

  3. penigma Avatar
    penigma

    I concur, no black boxes. The government is NOT entitled to track your every move – the saying that “if you don’t have anything to hide, you have nothing to fear” is something only a totalitarian state would use.

    My response, “If you have no proper cause, you have no legitimate use.”

  4. soliah.com Avatar
    soliah.com

    A few years back an auto insurance company, I think it was “Progressive” wanted to give a substantial discount if they could install a “mileage tracker”. They said it was to base insurance on actual mileage driven. For this they wanted to install a full GPS. (hmm!) While actual mileage basing of insurance might be a good idea there are a lot of ways to do this without the “big brother” intrusion. For example have dealers email the actual mileage numbers when the car is in for service. This would not tell where or when you have been somewhere.

    Also, Progressive Insurance wanted to raise the insurance rates of someone I knew for a “poor credit rating”. He had no debt and paid off the credit cards in full every month. Weird!

    My 2005 Ranger will record seatbelt use and a speed sample if an airbag is deployed.

  5. angryclown Avatar
    angryclown

    Oh great. Another innovation to make you paranoid wingnuts crazy. Bush tapping peoples’ phones without oversight? Not a problem. Fluoride in drinking water? Devises to make driving safer? Grab the guns and run for the bomb shelter, Mabel!

  6. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    “Bush tapping peoples’ phones without oversight?”
    Whose phone was tapped?
    “Flouride in the drinking water?”
    And you think McCain is old?
    “Devices to make driving safer?”
    How would the black box make anyone drive safer?

  7. Bike Bubba Avatar
    Bike Bubba

    It’s unclear how much the government could do with this; the article states pretty clearly that a lot of the data is only kept for a week. Exactly how Mr. Police could take a look at your EDR and write you a ticket, which would be a clear violation of unreasonable search and seizure, is not clear.

    One thing that the EDR would be good for would be in taking a look at driving choices vis a via warranty service. My wife used to work as an ombuds-lady for Oldsmobile, and it was routine that there would be a “difference of opinion” between the service department’s view of how the car was driven, and that of the owner. The EDR could answer that.

    (example; brakes wearing out really quickly…mechanic knows the driver and points out he sees him riding the brakes all the way down the mountain each morning….no wonder they’re gone at 10,000 miles…but is he telling the truth?)

  8. Mr. Shirt Avatar
    Mr. Shirt

    AC,

    I’m an airline pilot. I can assure you that the black box does not make a flight safer, at least directly. When an accident happens, the box just makes investigation into what happened easier. That MAY help safety in future flights, by pointing out a mechanical issue or a procedural problem, but the accident happened regardless of the presence of the black box.

    Pilot’s Unions are very protective of the info on that box. It is always running, & every word & action taken by the pilots is recorded. The Unions
    are very adamant on the stance that the company may not review the recorded data unless there is an accident. Will there be any such protection for a person driving their own personal car?

    Also it should be pointed out that black boxes (FWIW, they are really orange), are only in airliners. Private aircraft, the aviation equivalent of personal cars, have no box.

    There is no legitimate reason for these things to be mandated to be in personal automobiles. The idea that the government is demanding that they be placed in every car should frighten anyone… even a clown like you.

  9. Bike Bubba Avatar
    Bike Bubba

    Mr. Shirt, I do hope that some of the automated diagnostics on the planes ARE in fact readable routinely, and it’s just the black box that’s protected this way, right?

    Maybe I don’t want to know if I’m wrong. At the very least, I could be glad that I haven’t “seen you at work” for a while. Nothing against you, of course–I’m just not big on flying.

  10. Badda Avatar
    Badda

    We’re going to get folks looking into the possibility of the American Union of Auto Drivers.

  11. swiftee Avatar
    swiftee

    I see an opportunity here.

    A kit to defeat the black box in regular autos: $29.99

    Same kit for Volvo’s, Suburu Foresters and VW beetles: $250.99

    Prius hybrid option kit: $560.99 (requires standard kit as well)

    Custom kit for tiny clown cars: $1250.99

  12. Mr. Shirt Avatar
    Mr. Shirt

    Bike Bubba,

    Yes, depending on the airplane there are parameters that are recorded & reported, but not the same way that a Flight Data Recorder or Cockpit Voice Recorder does.

    The plane I fly is fairly new technology, so it records lots of stuff, but mostly only if set parameters are exceeded. For example, allowing an engine to over-spool or over-heat. This is largely for maintenance purposes, if an engine is run too hot for too long it needs to be inspected or rebuilt.

    There is another system on the plane that reports mistakes the crew makes, for example, having the wrong flap setting for takeoff. All the info connecting the crew to the mistake is removed prior to the data being submitted for analysis. This allows the airline & manufacturer to come up with solutions to remedy common errors, without the fear of the pilots losing their careers.

    The FDR & CVR only come into play when there is an accident, & it’s these two devices that records every movement & sound we make.

    All that said, it’s important to note that pilots are flying someone else’s airplane, with 19 to 500 paying passengers on board. It’s a commercial operation, not a personal vehicle for private use.

  13. nerdbert Avatar
    nerdbert

    Another innovation to make you paranoid wingnuts crazy.

    Ah yes, wingnuts don’t quite like being monitored by authorities, be they governmental or private enterprises.

    Meanwhile, those wacky clown car dwelling Democrats in Oregon are still pushing mandatory GPS tracking devices into cars to up the tax on hybrids. Of course, clownish types never believe the government will want all that data stored in those GPS units for other purposes, right? Nor that such data won’t make it into the private sector, right? After all, those red light cameras are just for safety not revenue!

  14. Mitch Berg Avatar
    Mitch Berg

    Another innovation to make you paranoid wingnuts crazy.

    So let me get this straight; the “reality-based” community is all giggly about law-abiding Americans being monitored – unless there’s probable cause they’re getting calls from terrorists?

    Got it.

    (Whew).

  15. soliah.com Avatar
    soliah.com

    nerdbert Says:
    “Meanwhile, those wacky clown car dwelling Democrats in Oregon are still pushing mandatory GPS tracking devices into cars to up the tax on hybrids.”

    My wrist GPS can record mileage but it’s overkill since a modern vehicle computer records miles driven. Even with the early versions they record total miles so switching out speedometers wouldn’t work if you had a very high mileage vehicle you were trying to pass off as low mileage. I’ll bet my 1993 S-10 4×4 which has a data port has a mileage tracker.

    This is relatively innocent. Sort of like the old smog stations taking a look at your odometer during the annual certification. The GPS part is really creepy, sort of like a cellphone provider claiming that they have to record and keep all your cell conversations to determine minutes used.

    That is BS. With hybrids, electric and plug in hybrid electric vehicles the gas tax can need to be supplemented but the only data needed is miles driven. The “sane lane” zones might scan this on a regular basis and send you a bill based on miles driven but that is all they need to know. If not scanned annually there could be a requirement that you get a mileage scan before getting a plate renewal. Using quick math I seem to be paying three cents per mile in road use/gas taxes. That’s “acceptable” because I use a full conventional fuel vehicle so I “pay at the pump”. No need for the gov to know my miles driven. With the “alternative” vehicles all that is needed is total mileage driven.

  16. angryclown Avatar
    angryclown

    Mr. Shi(r)t said: “I’m an airline pilot. I can assure you that the black box does not make a flight safer, at least directly.”

    Really? Cause I was totally thinking you’re a rocket scientist or brain surgeon. Yeah, we kind of get that the black box doesn’t magically prevent the airliner from falling out of the sky or the car from crashing into a brick wall. It merely helps prevent the next accident.

  17. nerdbert Avatar
    nerdbert

    This is relatively innocent. Sort of like the old smog stations taking a look at your odometer during the annual certification. The GPS part is really creepy, sort of like a cellphone provider claiming that they have to record and keep all your cell conversations to determine minutes used.

    Read the referenced post and article. Those wacky Oregonians are actually tracking mileage and position. They’re going to make sure that you get tax credit for miles driven outside Oregon. See? You get a benefit by letting the government track your every move! So why are you complaining?

  18. Mr. Shirt Avatar
    Mr. Shirt

    Well AC, if you aren’t as stupid as your writing skills portray, perhaps you should enroll in a class!

    “Devises [sic] to make driving safer? Grab the guns and run for the bomb shelter, Mabel!” -Angry Clown

    A geez, you can’t spell either.

  19. Mr. Shirt Avatar
    Mr. Shirt

    Soliah,

    Do you trust the government to only gather mileage info?

    As you say, they want to adjust government revenue “properly”. That cop that clocked me speeding last year was also trying to adjust government revenue. Of course, one cop can only write one ticket at a time, & can only be in one place at one time, so speeders get off scot-free most of the time. A GPS also records speed…

    So the government could now collect a fine from everyone everytime they exceed to posted limit.

    As Nerdbert pointed out, a simple report of miles driven is not enough. What if I drive through Wisconsin? Minnesota is not entitled to that tax revenue for miles driven on Wisconsin roads. So the GPS also has to report everywhere I drive.

    This is far from innocent.

  20. Bill C Avatar
    Bill C

    No word yet on whether the devices will be defeatable.

    I can guarantee you that unless there is a law preventing their defeat (which wouldn’t surprise me), they WILL be defeatable. The collective gearhead/geek brain trust syndicate out there will come up with a way to defeat these things VERY quickly, especially if there is a buck to be made with a $69.99 plug in chip (or even $269.99…if lots of people are willing to pay that for a chip that gives 25 more HP, lots more people will pay that to disable the black box)

  21. angryclown Avatar
    angryclown

    Awesome smackdown, Mr. Shi(r)t. Angryclown made a typo. The truth is, Angryclown doesn’t actually type his own posts. Once again, I’m forced to sack my girl and hire a new one.

  22. Bill C Avatar
    Bill C

    sack my girl

    So THAT’S what you call it now…

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