Southern Accents
The south takes a lot of hits here in Minnesota.
To be fair, the South deserves a few shots. Southern culture has a very violent undercurrent to it; parts of the rural south have higher murder rates than the worst inner cities; some sociologists explain that "Redneck" culture inherited the worst aspects of 1700s Anglo-Irish culture, including the penchants for duelling and brawling. The economy runs a little slow; a manager at a company in North Dakota for whom I once wrote copy as part of a college interim project explained "people up here get more done before 10AM than people in Alabama do all day" (obviously anecdotal, and take it for what it's worth - but he was hardly the only person who's said this).
And then there are those pesky education statistics.
Minnesota, of course - at least, in the cant of the Minnesota Liberal - is the polar opposite. Good economy, strong institutions, good "education scores", whatever that means (of which much more later). To them, the explanation is simple; we have high taxes.
Low taxes? Bad education, violence, lousy economy. High taxes? All is hunky-dory.
Like most truisms, the real answer is much more complex.
And complexity makes many leftybloggers sad.
Jeff Fecke of BloGoTMoL displays the sort of political egalitarianism that makes so many leftyblogs such a delightful read:
"Okay, let's see if I can explain this in itty-bitty terms so the 'wingers here get it"
Uh huh.
Jeff, whose claim to fame is being to political prediction what Nihilist is to football picks, is a pretty typical DFLer in that he doesn't like the South much:
Pretty much by any measure you want to use--social, economic, socioeconomic, education, mean income, average income, cultural, or whatnot--the South is behind the North...their divorce rate is 2-3 times that of the North...Why is it that we in the godforsaken liberal North should be so much of a better place to live? "
Yep. The South has some social issues.
Why? Well, just like the reasons Minnesota is "successful", it has very little to do with tax rates or amount of government intervention:
- Southern society evolved from 200 years of pseudo-feudal, neo-aristicratic society, with a rigid caste system that was little-disturbed by the waves of immigration that caused such upheaval - and renewal - in the North. And just as 300 years of slavery gave African Americans a cultural sense of helplessness, a devaluation of the virtues of masculinity, and little sense of initiative (something slaves rarely need) that still cripple the culture today, the same culture helped create some of the same features in white, lower-class society; by bother with education when your future (so says the culture) is wrapped up in being a sharecropper, just like your father?
- The South lost the Civil War. Not just lost, but lost badly. The South never had much in the way of industry before the Civil War (they imported most of their artillery, rifles and warships; they had a fraction of the North's railroads, manufacturing output and infrastructure); afterwards, it was even worse. So after the war, both of the South's infrastructures - its huge basis in slaves and its meagre one in manufacturing - were destroyed. More importantly, the sense of defeat mixed with the aforementioned sense of peasant helplessness to make the general sense of the place even worse.
- While the left likes to snicker about the "Bible Belt", they do so ignoring the Calvinist religious traditions, with their emphasis on hard work, that played their role in making the North, especially the Midwest, so successful compared with the South
- In the case of the far upper Midwest, the sense of Scandinavian communitarianism, contrasted with the South's neo-feudalist caste system, both helped (making more cohesive communities) and hurt (provided a springboard to the intrusive, destructive neo-socialism that co-opted and fouled the communitarianism by the 1960's).
Note that none of these involve "taxation". Communitarianism is important - and has nothing to do with government intervention.
their education level as a whole is far behind the North...
That pretty much depends on:
- what you use to assess "education level". Test scores? Funding? Pick yer poison. All have their problems.
- The level of prejudice and stereotype you bring to the conversation.
Southern culture, stereotypically, doesn't value education to the extent it does in the North.
Oh, and yes, there are a lot of racists and sexists and zealots there, too, more than there are up here by percentage.
Perhaps - although the most egregiously racist people I've ever met are union guys, from whatever part of the country (in fact, the most corrosively racist person I've ever personally known was a Teamster and a DFL organizer from the East Side of Saint Paul. Not that that's emblematic of al DFLers. Just saying). So I'd ask Jeff for a cite...
...and then to explain why so many middle-class blacks are moving back to the South. Is it because middle-class blacks are incompetent and don't know what they're doing.
That's nothing against Southerners generally--I'm sure many of them are nice people. But their economy sucks
Raleigh/Durham? Dallas/Fort Worth? Atlanta?
All generalizations are false.
Um, that pretty much depends on:
1) what you use to assess "education level". Test scores? Funding? Pick yer poison. All have their problems.
2) the level of prejudice and stereotype you bring to the conversation.
Just saying - "measuring" education is as dicey and agenda-driven as a Zogby poll.
Given the opportunity to live in Mississippi rent-free for life, I'd pass--because by any reasonable measure, it's a lousy place to live...But the fact is that none of the whining righties here would move there either, despite the nirvana that its low-tax, pro-God, anti-gay, pro-business, anti-welfare system should have achieved by now.
Here's a thought experiment; take a society that has a centuries-old tradition of learned helplessness and devaluation of many of the virtues you and I consider normal - hard work, egalitarianism, yadda yadda. Slap high taxes, a socialist bureaucracy and and a Minnesota-style nannystate on top of it. What do you have?
You have Nigeria. Or Louisiana.
But let's be clear; as a "whiny righty" (Jeff Fecke's gift for inappropriate generalizations has kept pace with his gift for prediction) who has spent his whole life in the North, there are reasons I'd not move to the South. I love winter. I hate humidity. I hate bugs. I don't like rednecks. The same reasons I don't live in Farmington.
But let's look at Jeff's rationale at face value. You want a stable, low-crime, cohesive society with better schools and strong social cohesion - in other words, the anti-South?
Then climb on the truck and move to the Dakotas.
North Dakota has better schools (depending, as always, on how you measure; SAT scores, standardized test scores, and graduation rates equal to or better than Minnesota's, tied with best in the nation; all of that at 40% less money per capita), lower crime, lower illegitimate birth rates, and lower unemployment (in the 6-8 major cities) than Minnesota. Fargo rode out the last recession in MUCH better shape than Minnesota.
Oh, yeah - and much lower taxes, a much less intrusive bureaucracy.
So, whiny lefties - why aren't you up there?
Because it's not about rational decision-making to the left (and I'm generalizing far beyond Jeff, here); it's about stereotypes.
Minnesota has a lot of advantages, things that have nothing to do, largely, with statism (aka Liberalism); strong work ethic, good access to natural resources, no civil war that crushed the region's social and economic development for 100 years, no social fabric that was debilitated by 200-odd years of quasi-feudal pseudo-aristrocracy before that, a Calvinistic religious tradition that emphasizes hard work and communitarianism (not statism, although we certainly adopted that in Minnesota, too), and on, and on.
Who knows where we'd be if we'd played to our strengths, and bypassed our great weakness - our stifling bureaucracy and arrogant, all-consuming public class?
Posted by Mitch at
March 2, 2006 09:01 AM
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Mitch offered: "Raleigh/Durham? Dallas/Fort Worth? Atlanta?"
You been in one of those towns recently? If not, you'll be surprised at how many business people are transplanted Northerners.
Posted by: angryclown at March 2, 2006 10:17 AM"You been in one of those towns recently?"
Yes.
" If not, you'll be surprised at how many business people are transplanted Northerners."
No, I wouldn't. It supports my point, actually; why would they have transplanted themselves if the place was such a total loss?
Answer: It's not.
Posted by: mitch at March 2, 2006 10:22 AMGee, could that be because Raleigh/Durham Dallas/Fort Worth and Atlanta have climates more favorable to business?
Posted by: Kermit at March 2, 2006 10:27 AMNo, it means that enterprising Northerners have headed to places where the workers don't expect to be paid much or be treated well. Same as it ever was.
Posted by: angryclown at March 2, 2006 12:19 PM(Didn't Minnesota's Mister Right, Jason Lewis, move to Raleigh?)
I've long been annoyed at the arrogant and snotty condescention that many Yankees have for the South in general. I was born and raised in Minnesota, and my family on both sides were born and raised in Minnesota. I've never lived in the South... I've visited the South and known a few folks from the South.
But the amount of nonsense from a bunch of jumped up Northern jackasses that wouldn't know the business end of a Brown Bess if it jumped up and licked them on the ass makes me want to tell them, "Hey, pally... we won the war. We're one country now. Try acting like it."
Especially the folks who are multicultural yet get jumpy when a black guy strolls through the neighborhood selling something.
Madonn'!!!
Posted by: Badda-Blogger at March 2, 2006 12:28 PMThey don't expect to paid as much? They don't NEED to be paid as much. Lower cost of housing, lower tax rates, lower energy bills, grits are cheap.
Posted by: Kermit at March 2, 2006 12:39 PMNow you're going to slam their education system. Well, I imagine one could get a solid education just about anywhere in this country if the parents are involved.
Kermit observed: "Well, I imagine one could get a solid education just about anywhere in this country if the parents are involved."
And that means *both* cousins.
Posted by: angryclown at March 2, 2006 01:05 PMI'm sure that knowing "the business end of a Brown Bess" gives one considerable street cred in Dogpatch or Mayberry, Badda. I'm not so sure how that equips one for the global economy.
Posted by: angryclown at March 2, 2006 01:20 PMAngryclown: I'm sure that knowing "the business end of a Brown Bess" gives one considerable street cred in Dogpatch or Mayberry.
As opposed to New York, where the locals either fled like scared rabbits, or spent the entire revolution actively collaborating with the British.
Posted by: Nigel at March 2, 2006 01:23 PMAs a "whiny-righty" who's lived in the South and now resides here in the frozen tundra I'll say that the South has been economically vibrant for a while now. It's actually much more dynamic than it is in the Northeast, or in MN where the government is always sticking its nose in everything. There's a reason people leave blue states if they want to start a business, and it's not all pay related. In fact, many of those businesses have been driven out of the blue states by high workers' comp rates, high taxes, and high regulatory burdens.
I reject Jeff's assertion of more racism in the south, too. My annecdotal evidence showed far more of it in the Northeast than in the South. And shall we consider that the most racially divided cities in the country are in the North? Consider that of the major metro areas in the country, the most segrated Southern city is 15th. (http://www.censusscope.org/us/rank_dissimilarity_white_black.html)
That said, I concur that the educational system in parts of the South is abysmal, and in parts very good. Raleigh, etc are good. Parts of Palm Beach county in FL were good, parts of it I'd never consider allowing my kids near. It's very spotty there, with far more variation than in the North where things are more uniform and unionized. Down there the market really determines what is delivered, much more so than up here.
Posted by: nerdbert at March 2, 2006 01:25 PMThat certainly is a shameful history, Nige. Though maybe not quite as bad as a traitorous rebellion against the United States in defense of slavery. That might have been worse, don't ya think?
Posted by: angryclown at March 2, 2006 01:48 PMMitch answered: "You been in one of those towns recently?"
"Yes."
Just to beat JB Doubtless to the punch, which one(s) have you been in (DFW, Atlanta or Raleigh)? How recently and for how long?
Posted by: angryclown at March 2, 2006 01:53 PMAngryclown: That certainly is a shameful history, Nige. Though maybe not quite as bad as a traitorous rebellion against the United States in defense of slavery. That might have been worse, don't ya think?
I agree. Sherman should have torched New York, too.
Posted by: Nigel at March 2, 2006 02:27 PM...or at least the Irish slums (you have to know that aspect of civil war history for this to make sense).
Yes, PARTS of the old South has problems. But they'd move past them a lot faster if the north wasn't so arrogant towards them. Too damn much pride on both sides of the equation. Reminds me of when people were talking about "The Black Problem" and the counterpoint to that was "Its not a Black problem, its a White problem."
Posted by: Bill Haverberg at March 2, 2006 03:58 PMAngryClown said something that sounded a muted trumpet or trombone like teachers in the Peanuts cartoons:
"Wah, won-wohah wwwwhooon-uh wah-wah."
A Brown Bess is a rifle, son. (It is also beautiful and makes a lovely noise.)
There's an easy way to find out which is the business end... look down the inside of the black pipe. That's a barrel.
Posted by: Badda-Blogger at March 2, 2006 04:10 PMBadda, if you address Angryclown as "son" in person, your ass will find itself on the business end of Angryclown's oversize shoe.
Posted by: angryclown at March 2, 2006 06:37 PMHere's an interesting observation;
We had a "Fat Tuesday" luncheon and pot luck at work this week; apparently someone on the food committee was transferred from our Gulfport office and there was a lot of Mardi-Gras and other southern-style food included in the pot luck.
The group I'm in - Knowledge Services - eats out on a regular basis, and our diet is the typical IT geek fair: Korean, Chinese, Sushi, Thai - the usual. A lot of the southern and Louisianna regional dishes just sat on the counter for a long while as people debated over whether or not it was any good. What usually evented was a brave volunteer would go up and grab a small plateful of ... something ... and the rest of the table would watch and wait for them to pass judgement, before trying it themselves.
It truly is a different world.
Some of what was driving this, to be fair, was our own references to Lutefisk and head cheese and blood sausage and other upper midwest "ethnic" food, so there was also a case of "once bitten, twice shy" at work here.
Posted by: Bill Haverberg at March 2, 2006 07:38 PMAC wrote: "...as bad as a traitorous rebellion against the United States in defense of slavery. That might have been worse, don't ya think?"
Um, Clown - which you certainly are turning out to be - do you grasp the concept of government of the people, by the people, and for the people? you do know that the country was founded as a voluntary agreement between the states, right? You do realize that the Declaration of Independence recognizes and refers to the states as sovereign bodies, right? The disservice to our country was not done by the South; but by Lincoln. We did not have a national governement, in the strictest sense of the word; we had a federal government, at least until the Civil War.
It was a war about preserving the Union, ultimately. Supposedly ending slavery was just a political ploy - witness the useless Emancipation Proclamation, which freed only slaves in Southern areas unoccupied by northern troops. See also Lincoln's fourth debate with Douglas.
So, Clown, who is treasonous, exactly?
Posted by: Steve at March 2, 2006 07:53 PM...aaaand angryclown is reduced to threats of physical violence in absence of anything resembling a point.
Sorry, my bad. "Reduced" implies that he came down from somewhere.
Do try again soon, SON.
Posted by: JWW at March 2, 2006 07:56 PMI forgot to mention Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus and imprisonment, without trial, of thousands of Northern citizens, for "treason." Leaves me wondering why AC sides with Lincoln on this one.
Posted by: Steve at March 2, 2006 08:02 PMMinnesotan's who mock the South's poor academic record have evidently never stuck their heads into a classroom in Minneapolis or Saint Paul..where 40% of the students fail to graduate and upwards of 70% fail to pass a miserably simplistic basic skills test on the first try.
That being said, what we lack in academic achievement is more than made up by the number of goofballs that this state puts into general circulation...take assclown for instance; he probably has trouble figuring out which end of a toothpaste tube to point at his brush..every morning.
Am I right boy? I am, aren't I..heh.
Posted by: swiftee at March 2, 2006 08:33 PMBadda said: "A Brown Bess is a rifle, son."
JWW said: "Do try again soon, SON."
Wow, that's great. It figures that Minnesota's liberal enough to let two guys adopt a child. But who would have thought they'd let a *mentally challenged* gay couple have a kid together?
Mazel tov, guys!
Posted by: angryclown at March 3, 2006 07:59 AMnotsoswiftee said: "he probably has trouble figuring out which end of a toothpaste tube to point at his brush..every morning."
True enough, swift one - it can be a challenge. But you might want to look a little closer at the tube you pull out of the medicine cabinet in the morning. My Minnesota spies tell me your breath stinks of ass-lube.
Oh wait, maybe that's not the reason. Ew.
(High five to Joshua!)
Posted by: angryclown at March 3, 2006 08:05 AMSwiftee shoots, and he Scores! You know I hear they even got them there university thingys down in Dixie. Imagine that!
Posted by: Kermit at March 3, 2006 08:09 AMTrue enough, Kerm. They're attended by people who can't get into a decent school up north.
Posted by: angryclown at March 3, 2006 08:21 AMPassing over the flamefest between Assclown and the rest for the moment...you might want to take a gander at James Webb's BORN FIGHTING, which is an interesting look at the history of the Scots-Irish and their role in America, especially with respect to the South. To pick just one point out of it, describing the South as if it had a monolithic culture is a mistake and leads to some very illogical conclusions, which Webb picks apart most deftly.
As for southern racists and northern bigots, I'd rather deal with the southerners. At least they'll be honest and in my face about it, as opposed to the "Minnesota nice" bigots up here.
Posted by: Kevin at March 3, 2006 09:47 AMAssclown says:
"My Minnesota spies tell me your breath stinks of ass-lube."
Funny, I've never had anyone tell me that..in fact AC, your wife once said I had the sweetest breath she's ever encountered..'course that was long before I traded her for a bottle cap so she's probably a bit bitter these days.
I'd advise your Minnesota spies to wipe the detritus off their upper lips boy. When you live in a cesspool, the whole world smells like shit..right? Am I right..
..heh, sure I am, just ask Joshua.
Assclown continues re: Colleges and universities south of the Mason-Dixon line..
"They're attended by people who can't get into a decent school up north."
Sounds like the bitter memory of personal experience alking there.
But as I've pointed out, assclown wasn't lonely.
Unfortunately for guys like assclown, all accredited colleges and universities require applicants to take the SAT or ACT test..and as I said earlier, upwards of 70% of them can't see their way past an eight grade test until they hit the 12th grade.
But on the bright side, they do know without any doubt that Paul Wellstone once changed water into wine, that Algore invented the internet, and that vaginal cigar probing doesn't count as sex which makes them very valuable to the left wing echo chamber.
BTW assclown; what *was* your alma mater? Wait..dont say..I know, it was MIT right?
Matchbook Institute of Taking idiots money.
So did you draw the pony, or the pirate to get in?
Heh.
Posted by: swiftee at March 5, 2006 11:52 AMBTW, just how do your spies know what ass-lube smells like? Is this something you and your friends use as hair gel?
Keep it greasy assclown.
Posted by: swiftee at March 5, 2006 02:18 PMAll I have to say to you stuck up Yankee fucks is this: I was born and raised in Lake City, Tennessee. I graduated from the University of Tennessee with a 3.85 GPA...much higher than many of the Yankees I graduated with. I am typing this letter from my office at the bank I work at as a loan officer. I am 22 years old...so we can stop with all that, "people from the North are smarter" bullshit. If people up there are so smart you would realized that marriage is between a man and a woman, and people that sexually abuse children should get more than 3 months probation. That would never happen in Dixie. People vacation, travel to, and move to the South from the North all the time. I have never met anyone from the South that wanted to vacation in Detroit, or move to Newark, New Jersey. Every guy from the North I have met loves a girl with a Southern accent. I have never met a girl that likes a guy with a Northern accent...even Northern girls. Just face it,the South is better than the North in too many ways to name.
Posted by: Parks at March 17, 2006 05:15 PM