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October 28, 2006

Absence of Grace

It started so well.

Bob Collins - MPR's webmeister and proprietor of the network's "Polinaut" blog - wrote excellent piece on remembering, in this heated, uncivil political season, what the important things are. The piece was in reference to Learned Foot's wife's diagnosis with cancer.

Collins tried. He really did:

We get wrapped up in politics a lot...Sometimes, it's just a game. But that doesn't stop us from projecting as 'evil' those with whom we politically disagree. We should catch ourselves doing that in the heat of the campaign because when all is said and done, we're supposed to be united and when this election season is over, if we still view others as 'evil,' then nothing good can come of it, regardless of who wins the election.

The next person I meet in the blogosphere who actually is a first class jerk personally, will be the first one...Because some things are more important than politics...

...he wrote, referencing Foot's story.

And then, right out of the gate, the first comment, from Bill Prendergast - one of the more logorrheac nattering nabobs who comments endlessly over at Eva Young's Dump Bachmann obsessionblog - hijacks the entire thread to take a swing at Michele Bachmann:

It is entirely possible that a person you disagree with politically--is in fact "evil."

For example: if a person is a hatemonger who makes false charges against her fellow Americans to further her political career--doesn't that make her "evil"?

Over four or five wide column inches, not a single word about Mrs. Foot or about Collins' point. Simple hijacking.

Loathsome. Simply loathsome.

I try to get along with people. I can even bend an elbow with Mark Gisleson and the MN Publius kids, for crying out loud - because I believe that once the election is over, you still gotta share a country with those people. (I have no idea if Gisleson or the MNPublii believe any such thing; faith springs eternal. Although it was interesting to see a number of leftybloggers, including some fairly abrasive ones, offering Mrs. Foot their best wishes in Foot's original comment section. Why, it's almost like, even though they believe differently than us, they're still human.

Hm.

But that would seem to be more than Mr. Prendergast will allow for those with whom he disagrees.

What must it be like, to be so knotted up with hatred over...politics that one can't take one lousy post's worth of vacation from bile and rage?

Posted by Mitch at October 28, 2006 05:01 AM | TrackBack
Comments

I don't know...but I spose we'll find out if Ted or AC comments on this thread.

In trying to picture what I would feel at the misfortune of a "political" enemy rather than an "enemy" enemy (say Bin laden), I can honestly say I would hope the best for them. Because, like you say, it's only politics for crying out east.

But...there's hatred so deep in people, especially against people of Christian faith, that nothing surprises me anymore. I think that's what lies at the bottom of the animus toward Bachman and Bush-it's the Christianity.

Plus, some people are just boorish no matter what because they're self-centered.

Posted by: colleen at October 28, 2006 01:06 AM

Prendergrast: "Michelle Bachman lied in church! She's evil!"
Terry: "We killed God. We're all evil"
Materialism is doomed by its lack of imaginative range.

BTW-I'm now commenting with firefox 2.0. On the fly spell checking in the browser! I no longer have an excuse for mixing up my "ie"s and "ei"s.

Posted by: Terry at October 28, 2006 07:21 AM

Colleen said,

"I think that's what lies at the bottom of the animus toward Bachman and Bush-it's the Christianity."

In a sence you're right but it's not because they claim their Christians. It's because their claims don't seem very genuine.

What lies at the bottom of the animus toward Bachman and Bush is the hypocricy.

Posted by: Doug at October 28, 2006 10:07 AM

"What lies at the bottom of the animus toward Bachman and Bush is the hypocricy."

Ah, the favorite liberal taunt: Hypocrisy.

The people who typically throw out the "hypocrite" charge are those who don't stand for anything. Therefore, they are uncomfotable when others have the guts to actually take absolute positions. So when those who actually stand for something have their setbacks it makes the spineless weasels who stand for nothing feel better about themselves.

Posted by: Brad at October 28, 2006 12:02 PM

1) What happens at Flash's garage stays at Flash's garage.

2) I didn't want to leave a comment at Polinaut and tried to engage Collins in some emails, but he wanted no part of that.

3) The real sin in Collins' post wasn't the predictable comments, it was the fact that Collins chose to politicize Mrs. Foot's diagnosis by wrapping it in a "can't we all just get along?" post.

No, we can't all just get along. It's one thing for Mitch and I to disagree about the role of government, but it's another thing entirely when someone's world view insists on stepping on my toes. My atheism does not threaten ANYONE's beliefs. I have my own beliefs, but the nature of atheism is such that we consider evangelizing our cause to be somewhat silly.

But because of Christians I live in a country where I cannot buy beer on Sunday, marijuana is illegal, and where one political party has decided that it's appropriate for government to fund the people who are restricting my rights (see Kuo on how the evaluaters would laugh out loud at non-Christian groups that applied to the Office of Faith Based Initiatives). I can no more chat with an evangelical who has chosen to use government to advance their beliefs than I can hang out with someone who is openly racist. Those are positions that deny me my right to live as I choose as an American. I don't force my atheism on others, and I deeply resent Christians who feel their beliefs should be enshrined in our laws.

I don't know why Bob Collins felt it was appropriate to offer his best wishes in the context of a political post, but I thought it was terribly inappropriate, and that it would spark debates like this one that would further distract people from one family's tragedy by tying it to other, completely unrelated issues.

If a member of my family contracts a life-threatening condition don't offer me best wishes if you are going to do so in the context of making a political statement because I won't take that as anything but an exploitation of my personal situation so you can make a political point, even if that point is simply, "this is more important than politics." Because it's not. We are a nation at war and the lives of hundreds of thousands of people — even if they are Muslims — does outweigh a personal tragedy. At least in my opinion.

Foot did not speak about politics in his post, and I really don't know why Collins felt he needed to. You may think Collins' message wasn't political, but if not, why bring up politics at all? For a guy who runs a political blog for a major news organization, Collins seems to have little patience with politics, and at times exhibits outright contempt for the entire process.

And I mean no disrespect to the Foots, who shouldn't be a part of this conversation at all.

Posted by: Mark Gisleson at October 28, 2006 12:06 PM

With any/all due respect, Mark, bollocks.

Collins' statement wasn't political; it was a time-out from politics, a plea for people to be humans first.

If we can't do that, then why not cut the crap and break out the guns right now?

Posted by: mitch at October 28, 2006 12:47 PM

Brad said,

"Ah, the favorite liberal taunt: Hypocrisy.

The people who typically throw out the "hypocrite" charge are those who don't stand for anything."

It's not a taunt Brad. It's an obeservation.

And it's my own personal experience that the it is the loudest "Christian" that is the first to judge and the last to forgive.

And, I find the proliferation of Megachurches with million dollar production centers that rival television stations antithetical to the teachings of Christ.

In my opinion, the current demonstrative Christian theater is hypocricy defined.

Posted by: Doug at October 28, 2006 01:03 PM

Colleen,

are you a Quaker ? The gentle beauty of your innermost being shines through your posts. I envision you as a cross between Sister Theresa and Joan of Ark. You know, a saint who doesn't mind kicking butt when the occasion calls for it.

Posted by: phipho at October 28, 2006 01:21 PM

"And, I find the proliferation of Megachurches with million dollar production centers that rival television stations antithetical to the teachings of Christ."

Really? So people can't properly serve God in such an environment?

Posted by: Brad at October 28, 2006 01:43 PM

Speaking as a marketer/propagandist (cutting straight to the quick), you can easily politicize your message by how you sequence data. If I were teaching a class in how to deconstruct a message, my interpretation of Collins' post would not be that it was meant to convey sympathy, but that it was a post about de-emphasizing the role of politics in our society. Mrs. Foot had very little to do with that post.

Collins' has long pushed that line, recently crossing the line from cynicism to outright apathy. The guy just wants this election done and over with. Every third post from him includes some comment about how hard they are working over there, or how little thanks they get, or how overwrought everyone else is.

I don't think Collins intended to, but his "get well" message was really a "Gee but am I ever tired of politics" post.

Or let me put it this way.

"When I started Norwegianity, I really wanted to shed some light on the blogosphere and the people in it. I'm glad I did, because everybody I've met, everybody I've read, has made for a very entertaining election season.

"I get wrapped up in politics a lot. I think it's life and death for us in the same way the Yankees losing the playoffs is. Sometimes, it's just a game. But that doesn't stop us from projecting as 'evil' those with whom we politically disagree. We should catch ourselves doing that in the heat of the campaign because when all it said and done, we're supposed to be untied and when this election is over, if we still view others as 'evil,' then nothing good can come of it, regardless of who wins the election.

"The next person I meet in the blogosphere who actually is a first class jerk personally, will the [second] one.

"That's a long-winded way of saying it would be good if we can think good thoughts for others during this "hair-trigger" stage of the campaign...even those with whom you may disagree politically.

"Because some things are more important than politics."

[continued]

Posted by: Mark Gisleson at October 28, 2006 01:46 PM

[continued]

When "I" write that post, does "get well soon" come across to you? Admittedly, it's a more confusing message when I put my name and particulars to it, but it's still a post about hosing down everyone involved in politics just days before a once in a decade transitional off-year election.

In the final days of the regular MLB season, would you have appreciated someone telling you to pipe down about the Twins because Detroit fans are people too? And would you have appreciated that message being inserted into a get well card?

Mrs. Foot's condition and politics are two completely separate things. It makes no sense to say that rabid sports fans, campaign workers/bloggers, or any other group of impassioned people need to step back and smell the roses because of one individual's health problems.

Again, this entire debate has been triggered because Collins' chose to use another person's lamentable illness as an excuse to lecture political activists on their priorities. As is his right, but I think it's tacky to use Mrs. Foot's now very public bout with cancer to leverage a very political point.

And I hate making this comment because this comment is also exploiting Mrs. Foot's illness as is this comment thread as was your post as was Collins' post. The woman deserves her privacy and she's not getting it because we're all trying to score points.

That's why I'm mad at Bob Collins. Mixing the personal with the political is inappropriate unless it's YOUR personal data that YOU have chosen to exploit. Foot didn't mention politics in his post, and I don't understand why Collins thought he should.

We can all say we're sorry until we're blue (or red) in the face, but those are empty words. This tragedy belongs to the Foots and their immediate circle of friends and family. Tying their tragedy to anything else and then blogging about it is inappropriate and insensitive. And with only one exception, all of the comments at KAR are apolitical and of bipartisan origin. No one needed Bob Collins to tell them that this wasn't political.

Posted by: Mark Gisleson at October 28, 2006 01:47 PM

Brad said,

"Really? So people can't properly serve God in such an environment?"

Define "properly serve" Brad and then I'll consider your question.

Posted by: Doug at October 28, 2006 04:57 PM

"...If I were teaching a class in how to deconstruct a message, my interpretation of Collins' post would not be that it was meant to convey sympathy, but that it was a post about de-emphasizing the role of politics in our society."

Then you and your class would have an interpretation, but not a meaning. Nowhere was "politics' role in society" said, meant or implied, except that people could stand to think a little less about political labels and more about humanity.

Some people are apparently incapable of this.

"Collins' has long pushed that line, recently crossing the line from cynicism to outright apathy. The guy just wants this election done and over with."

So he didn't suffiently appease the gods of politics. I don't have a problem with that.

"I don't think Collins intended to, but his "get well" message was really a "Gee but am I ever tired of politics" post."

It was a "people can be assholes when they let politics trump humanity". And he's right. And Prendergast proved it.

Or let me put it this way.

"When "I" write that post, does "get well soon" come across to you?"

Mark, no matter WHAT you write, I read "The Bushies are going to have me thrown into a re-education camp".

"Admittedly, it's a more confusing message when I put my name and particulars to it, but it's still a post about hosing down everyone involved in politics just days before a once in a decade transitional off-year election."

Ah. it must have been in some background-colored font. All I got from Collins' post was "it'd sure be cool if zealots weren't so zealous, and we could remember the things that are more important than politics"

By the way, Mark - you DO recognize things more important than politics, right? Not to insult anyone, but I DO I know people that don't...

"In the final days of the regular MLB season, would you have appreciated someone telling you to pipe down about the Twins because Detroit fans are people too?"

Not in that context, but then it's a fatally flawed analogy. If Twins fans were calling Tiger fans "evil" - in the full moral, metaphysical sense of the term - then yes, I would.

"And would you have appreciated that message being inserted into a get well card?"

I'm starting to think the problem, Mark, isn't the way the data is sequenced. It's the data you pull, based purely your own projection, from the message, that's causing the problem here. Collins' message was "matters of life and death and kindness to your fellow human is more important than anyone's political label".

"Mrs. Foot's condition and politics are two completely separate things."
To any sane person, yes.

"It makes no sense to say that rabid sports fans, campaign workers/bloggers, or any other group of impassioned people need to step back and smell the roses because of one individual's health problems."

It is eminently sensible, and just plain right.

"Again, this entire debate has been triggered because Collins' chose to use another person's lamentable illness as an excuse to lecture political activists on their priorities."

Correctly, as it happens.

" As is his right, but I think it's tacky to use Mrs. Foot's now very public bout with cancer to leverage a very political point."

THe point isn't remotely political, unless you assume one party has a monopoly on overpersonalizing politics.

"And I hate making this comment because this comment is also exploiting Mrs. Foot's illness as is this comment thread as was your post as was Collins' post. The woman deserves her privacy and she's not getting it because we're all trying to score points."

She not only deserves her privacy - she's getting it. Because, as a matter of fact, "Foot" is a pseudonym. The "Foot" home in Maple Grove will remain inviolate.

"That's why I'm mad at Bob Collins. Mixing the personal with the political is inappropriate unless it's YOUR personal data that YOU have chosen to exploit. Foot didn't mention politics in his post, and I don't understand why Collins thought he should."

Because for Learned Foot it is profoundly personal, and for Collins it's an observation about something that bothers him (and me) about politics.

"We can all say we're sorry until we're blue (or red) in the face, but those are empty words."

And therein lies an apparently unbridgeable difference in worldview.

"This tragedy belongs to the Foots and their immediate circle of friends and family. Tying their tragedy to anything else and then blogging about it is inappropriate and insensitive. And with only one exception, all of the comments at KAR are apolitical and of bipartisan origin. No one needed Bob Collins to tell them that this wasn't political. "

Besides Bill "Shit For Brains" Prendergrast? Sure.

Posted by: mitch at October 28, 2006 05:18 PM

"I'll consider your question."

That'll be a a first for Doug!

His question was perfectly clear, and your evasion was perfectly sophist. What is it about attending a "megachurch" that intrinsically invalidates one's faith, one's mission, one's relationship with Christ (or whichever belief system to which one belongs)?

Please try to answer without generalized references to "hypocrisy" that don't involve specific, generally-accepted examples of it on the part of a statistically significant number of the megaparishioners.

Get on that.

Posted by: mitch at October 28, 2006 05:30 PM

Well, I guess I'm just overwrought. I was raised to believe that a "get well" message is just that and not anything else. Had it been that, I don't think any of these discussions would be occurring.

And how 'bout them Cards?

(Crap, that's opening the door to Suppan and Heaton and Fox....)

Posted by: Mark Gisleson at October 28, 2006 07:18 PM

Doctor, heal thyself.

Posted by: ted at October 28, 2006 07:41 PM

But Mitch, as usual you have picked up a faulty précis and ran with it without bothering to comprehend the turd that Brad left.

I said, "I find the proliferation of Megachurches with million dollar production centers that rival television stations antithetical to the teachings of Christ."

Brad responded with, "Really? So people can't properly serve God in such an environment?"

What's that word for non-sequitor again?

Notice Mitch, I said NOTHING about ones ability to "serve God".

I said that I find a weekly multi-media event held at a multi-million dollar facility inconguous - incompatabe - inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus.

What's worse, you pick up the false conclusions made by Brad and elaborate on it.

"What is it about attending a "megachurch" that intrinsically invalidates one's faith, one's mission, one's relationship with Christ"

What is it about my commenting on my observations of Christian hyprocricy that throws you into such an angry defensive rage?

Also, notice in my post that I said, "I find", "And it's my own personal experience" and "In my opinion". I couldn't possibly have taken MORE ownership of my comments.

Finally Mitch, since Brad chose to, first, put words in my mouth that I didn't say, and secondly ask a question based on the words I never said, asking Brad to define what he means by "properly serving God" is a perfectly legitimate question.


Posted by: Doug at October 28, 2006 07:49 PM

You said you "find the proliferation of Megachurches with million dollar production centers that rival television stations antithetical to the teachings of Christ."

While I personally don't attend a megachurch - I like microchurches, actually - I'm not sure what teaching of Christ is *antithetical* to the megachurches. Perhaps you're aware of a specific one?

While your line and Brad's differed, it was a distinction without a meaningful difference; if a church is "antithetical" to Christ's teachings, then surely the parishioners don't serve God, do they? As such, I hardly think Brad put words in your mouth.

Finally, any comment that refers to "Christian hypocrisy" as a general description is rarely much more elevated than pure bigotry.

Posted by: mitch at October 28, 2006 08:32 PM

Love them Cards - but I almost ALWAYS love the NL (as long as the Twinks aren't in the running...)

Posted by: mitch at October 28, 2006 08:33 PM

What "country" is that where you can't buy beer on Sunday? We do all the time...in the USA...in ND. It must just be the "Minnesota Christians" that are so darned unreasonable...right here in the the land of the Democrats...so, I'm thinking that's who probably passed the laws on that one. Not "Christians" Mark Gisleson.

Posted by: colleen at October 28, 2006 10:35 PM

Mark Gisleson wrote: "If a member of my family contracts a life-threatening condition don't offer me best wishes if you are going to do so in the context of making a political statement because I won't take that as anything but an exploitation of my personal situation so you can make a political point"

Remember the Wellstone funeral rally?


Posted by: Terry at October 28, 2006 11:00 PM

Do I remember the #$%! Wellstone funeral rally?

Don't #$%@ go there — it's taken me four years to stop getting nosebleeds when I hear about that Rovian psych out. Janecek has apologized, you know, and Franken addressed all the phoney stories in one of his books, devoting a chapter to debunking it.

If you want to guarantee that Norm Coleman doesn't get elected, just keep bringing up your instantly revised history of what happened that night. My peeing on Reagan's grave wouldn't motivate me you as much as your reference just did me.

It's weird that a lefty needs to lecture the right on Midwest values, but you don't exploit someone's illness, and you don't do political critiques of memorial rallies/funerals anymore than you would mock the 9/11 dead.

Posted by: Mark Gisleson at October 29, 2006 07:53 AM

Colleen enjoins me to be civil, On this blog where Mitch, she and others have been so decidedly uncivil...

The exchanges above I would guess there are few of us who would prefer they be published with our names behind them - we are uncivil, ugly, rage filled.

"What must it be like, to be so knotted up with hatred over...politics that one can't take one lousy post's worth of vacation from bile and rage?"

To Mrs. Foot, my sincerest prayers for your recovery.

To all the rest: I have read and seen commentary, including by the ultra-verbose author, here and elsewhere that is nothing but ugly, bile-laden and full of rage. Mitch, for you to make that request is unbelievable. Your entire blog is devoted to hate. To the liberals who respond, his posts are worth less effort, and more mockery, acting slightly better than a devil only makes you a devil's advocate. I have posted here without scorn or hate on several occassions, but I am guilty as charged, nonetheless.

Each of us could do better, be better christians, but when your overall aim is to demonize people simply for not agreeing with you, it's hard to understand where that understanding is supposed to start. Where exactly Mitch do we see your compassion toward your enemies (political). He maketh a table before me in the presence of mine enemies is a line from a famous Psalm meant not to mean that you should confront and assail, but that you have to learn to love your enemies, to sit with them and break bread. If you now choose to request compassion, my comment, as it has ever been to you, is "let it begin with me."

Physician, heal thyself - was more than sarcasm - it was a not too hard jab to suggest your blog breeds nothing but contempt every day - if you want decency, then lead by example.

Posted by: ted at October 29, 2006 08:31 AM

Mark,

Don't worry Norm Coleman is doing a fine job of sealing his election doom on his own.

Posted by: phipho at October 29, 2006 08:34 AM

//Finally, any comment that refers to "Christian hypocrisy" as a general description is rarely much more elevated than pure bigotry.//

To quote you, mitch: Bollocks.

Posted by: red at October 29, 2006 10:17 AM

Red,

???

I mean, there are people out there - many of them - who assume Christians are hypocrites until proven otherwise.

And to the extent that sin exists, they're right, in a sense, but that's not what they mean.

But what are you referring to?

Posted by: mitch at October 29, 2006 01:56 PM

Mark Gisleson-
I don't live in MN anymore but I still reserve the right to hate that elitist SOB Walter Mondale. If the Wellstone commemoration was 'Rovian nightmare' it would have seemed like a dream come true to me. Franken is a confessed fraud (remember the sex questionnaires he sent to select politicians under a fake name & letterhead a few years ago?). I wouldn't trust his 'debunking'.
And your peeing on Reagan's grave wouldn't bother me as much as, apparently, my mere mention of Wellstone bothers you. Politicians are hired help, not saints.

Posted by: Terry at October 29, 2006 01:57 PM

"your blog breeds nothing but contempt "

Then go somewhere else!

Posted by: mitch at October 29, 2006 02:25 PM

I regret using the word "hate" in my comment above to describe my feelings about Mondale. The better word would be "despise", and that only for his whole-hearted embrace of liberal hypocrisy. His only redeeming feature aside from the usual "loved his mother" stuff is that he sports several pieces of skin art.

Posted by: Terry at October 29, 2006 03:09 PM

//I don't think Collins intended to, but his "get well" message was really a "Gee but am I ever tired of politics" post.

One of the things I've never figured out since mOving to Minnesota many years ago, is this habit of people here not to accept the literal interpretation of a message. I guess it's all part of that passive aggressive thing that is so peculiar to Minnesota. People here so often say one thing while thinking another -- and hoping the thought gets through the actual words ... that there's an utter inability to do anything BUT figure out that what was said simply MUST be a meaning entirely different.

Folks, I'm not here; I'm from the big bad East and one of the reasons the East is a place where things get done is they don't screw around trying to figure out what a sentence's actual meaning was.

Read the whole thing again. Word for word and then try to train your brain to understand the literal nature of it.

Mark, as for mixxing "the personal with the political," well...all politics is personal, isn't it?

Besides, it's not your blog, it's mine. You don't get to set the rules.

Posted by: Bob Collins at October 29, 2006 06:10 PM

Oh, for those who can't be bothered, I even spelled it out in the last sentence:


That's a long-winded way of saying it would be good if we can think good thoughts for others during this "hair-trigger" stage of the campaign... even those with whom you may disagree politically.

How hard is that to understand? Don't try to read into it. Just read it.

Then do it.

Posted by: Bob Collins at October 29, 2006 06:15 PM

Bob, as a native New Englander, I compliment this observation:

"One of the things I've never figured out since mOving to Minnesota many years ago, is this habit of people here not to accept the literal interpretation of a message."

Amen, brother.

Posted by: kb at October 29, 2006 06:30 PM

Lovely.
Everything from Rove to Wellstone! to the Cards winning in 5. All in response to a juvenile a55hole without a shred of sympathy for a fellow human in distress.
Let me relate a (hopefully) familiar story.
A woman who had been caught inthe very act of adultery was confronted and surrounded by her accusers who were prepared to follow the law and stone her to death. A certain teacher (who shall remain nameless, but is my ultimate hero) walked into the scene and enquired as to the situation. After hearing the accusations he declared "Alright. It's the Law. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." The accusers, one by one they all slipped away. When they were alone, the Teacher asked the woman "Woman, where are your accusers?" She answered "None here, Lord." "Neither do I accuse you. Go and sin no more".

Get some perspective, people.

Posted by: Kermit at October 29, 2006 06:51 PM

Bob,

"I'm from the big bad East and one of the reasons the East is a place where things get done is they don't screw around trying to figure out what a sentence's actual meaning was."

I might quibble with the geography lesson (I'm from North Dakota) but I agree with you and King.

Unsure about what people mean? Ask them. Don't concoct a doctrinal theory.

Posted by: mitch at October 30, 2006 06:04 AM

That's my point. Here you HAVE to ask what people mean becuase what they say -- and I realize this is a generalization -- isn't what they mean.

Doesn't that seem like an extra step in the communication process?

One of the reasons Mark calculates what I mean -- ignoring what I said in the process -- is because it's part of the communication process here for people who speak the language.

I'm not saying it's good or bad; every region has its own distinct culture. I'm just saying everyone should recognize it exists. It takes a long time to learn it.

And if I were any good at it, Mitch, I would have written a much shorter comment that said something like, "thanks." (g)

Posted by: Bob Collins at October 30, 2006 08:39 AM
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