Not sure what to make of Pat Robertson. However, what he says and has said in the past should at least get Christians thinking about God's role in this modern world.

Specifically, this. The first question to be answered is: Does God still intervene and work His will in the world today? If not, when did He quit? And, second, given your answer to the first question, any cursory examination of Scripture, especially the OT, shows God bringing forth nations and leaders and causing others to disappear and fall from power. Is that still happening, or do we restrict Him to whatever we're comfortable with?

I have no claim to divine revelation, and I have no idea of Pat Robertson is right or not. But for Christians to ridicule him in light of what the Book says about God and his workings is a bit beyond the pale, given that the rest of us know as little as he does about God's workings.

Apologies for a reply longer than the original post.

"Does God still intervene and work His will in the world today?"

Yes. There was a complete shift in method after the resurrection, however. IMHO, God works His will on an individual basis, within each of us. That's why free will is both a mystery and a neccesity.
I can't speak to the subject of Pat Robertson, but when someone is doing more harm than good to their cause they should STFU.

Thought provoking comment, Steve.
Theologically speaking, one could make the case that God got out of the smiting business with the birth of His son. A person can be Christian* in the sense of following Christ and his teachings, without believing that God acts directly in the world the way that Robertson believes, enacting retribution for sins and transgressions.
I agree with Mitch: Both Democrats and Republicans should be able to choose the 5 biggest nutcases on both sides and say, These people don't speak for us. Sadly for the dem's, the people they should thus denounce instead head the DNC and sit at the right hand of the Father (in this case Jimmy Carter) at the national convention.
* My parents had a prescient sense of irony; My given name is Christian, but I am not.

Kermit:
"...when someone is doing more harm than good to their cause they should STFU."

Isn't that part of Catholic dogma? (Obviously, not in those very words... at least not pre-Vat.2)

Not to get too much into theological wonkery, but I believe generic, orthodox Christian belief is that every occurrence in creation -- the tiniest change in the state of every subatomic particle -- is the result of the active will of God.
How this explains Pat Robertson remains a mystery even unto the faithful.

How this explains Pat Robertson remains a mystery even unto the faithful.

Posted by Terry at January 6, 2006 12:54 PM

Check out Scrappleface. Scott Ott explains it perfectly.

First,

Your attempt to assuage Robertson's excesses by somehow blaming the Dems/suggesting he'd exist in fiction regardless(they'd have to make him up) is pathetic. Robertson isn't a Republican, I don't blame you for him, please don't blame me. He's himself, a repulsive hyper-"Christian" intollerant of anything and anyone who disagrees with him - much like Wahabism. It's funny that psuedo-Christians like Robertson so frequently quote the Old Testament, and fail to grasp the New.

Second, at no time has Dean EVER suggested ANYTHING like it's appropriate to assassinate Hugo Chavez, Hugo Boss, or even Bruce Springstein, nor has he said that "divine retribution" befell Tom Delay, Tom Cruise or Tommy Hilfiger. Your character assassination appears to know no bounds. If anything, YOU bear more resemblance to Robertson's antics, than does Dean. Dean is strident, and was selected to head his party because of it, but is he less strident than DeLay? I think not. If you like I'll throw a half-dozen quotes from Tom the Mouth out for you.

Please stop pretending to be better than all the rest of us all the time, it gets both old, is revolting, and is dead flipping wrong. The left didn't invent Robertson, we didn't want him, and I sure as heck don't blame you for him, stop blaming me, or suggesting I'd make him up.

PB

Put another way.

Bush says that God "speaks" to him, now unless you think Bush is the second coming of Elijah, perhaps the leaders of both parties are just a little wacky, and maybe George bears more resemblance to Robertson than we always remember.

Put a third way..

If God is speaking to George the Lesser, perhaps it's time he listens.

Ciao'
PB

PB-
I'll match your Robertson with Cynthia McKinney & raise you a Michael Moore. As for Bush speaking to God, reference, Please? Prayer doesn't count, unless you want to include Clinton, Carter, Truman, etc.

Terry,

That's the point, no party specifically generates these nuts, I don't hold you accountable for Robertson, or Coulter (who says stuff FAR more offensive than Moore or Dean).

As for prayer, that's not what George the lesser said, he said God speaks to him, as if he has a divine mission, those are his words. It's rather hugely indicitave of hubris extremis, but even if not, it's a little kookey.

Anyway, the point is that Mitch, once again, MUST somehow poison what is essentially a non-partisan issue, into a partisan one. Now I've done that myslef a few (hundred) times, but not quite with such unabashed venom.

As for the Bush joke, it's one I heard from Bill Maher, it made me fall out of my chair, it's pretty damned funny unless you take yourself too seriously. Clinton surely didn't ever say "god speaks to me", the last person I remember doing that is Oral Roberts, (or Reggie White) the former when he said "god would call him home" if he didn't get something like 10 Million in donations, the latter just before he said that all white people were .. whatever.. anyway, like I said... kookey.

So Mitch, get over yourself, the right has no claim to sanity, the left no dominance in assininity (is that a word :)?), and Robertson is his own special brand of asshole. Unless you feel like being lumped in with him, stop lumping others.

Peeb

PB

Ack...last paragraph should have said.. the right has no SINGULAR claim to sanity.

Sorry folks.. Mitch, please put in an edit option, really, please.

PB

PB-
I'm still waiting for your reference to evidence verifying that Bush believes that "God "speaks" to him" other than in the course of regular ol' prayer. Speak up or shut up.

Well, Bush has said that God "speaks through" him.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1172948/posts

And others have gone on record saying they've heard Bush claim he's on a mission from God.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml

It's plainly obvious: Bush is a godly man who is confident he's doing the Lord's work.

Larry David observes:

"I don’t care if you’re President, if you say God talks to you, you’re a schizophrenic and a menace to society. You should be on drugs in a mental institution, like the Son of Sam. What’s the difference between God or a dog talking to you? It’s still a voice in your head. That means you’re certifiably %$@#ing crazy!"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larry-david/the-roving-thoughts-of-a-_b_3287.html

Well, if Larry David said it, it must be worth repeating.

The biggest difference: Pastors, conservatives, Columnists, Christian radio people (Chuck Knapp = not happy), and the like quickly respond and rebuke this guy. When Jesse Jackson claims to speak for God, the religious left does nothing. When Howard Dean or Kos say something, the left in general does nothing.

Jerry,

That's hardly true, when folks like Farakhan (sic) say something, they're rebuked. Further, when Trent Lott stuffed his foot in his mouth, it took Bush (et.al.) days to decide if the political winds were strong enough to call for his ouster.

Finally, when the "fearless leader" utters nonsense, NO ONE on the right makes a peep (other than maybe Arlen Specter, but he's not on the right). Case in point, "it's only a few bad apples that were involved in Abu Graib." Sure, and the investigation hadn't started, and the fact remains that much of the conducted was repeated nearly exactly throughout Asia by our forces. Or then there's the lovely "We don't do Torture" both from him and Cheney, except by International standards WE signed, Rebuplicans signed, we do, but other than McCain, how many Reps (esp guys like Mitch) called him on it?

And then there's "Our troops are given the finest equipment as fast as we can provide it" lie by Rumsfeld. News story today says that in fact 80% of the fatalities among Marines taking wounds to their torsoes could have been prevented if better body armor had been made available (it's been available since 2003), but the answer from the Pentagon "too expensive, too difficult." Well, I GUESS Rummy meant, it's the best we feel we want to afford.

Staking some claim to being the only side calling out your critics is false and misleading. Denouncing Robertson (a nut job) is easy, try denouncing something important. John Kline says he supports new elections for House Leader, while Kennedy says he wants a new election but is so spineless he won't sign the petition required to get one. Many foolish remarks by Democrats have been challenged by the "liberal" media, the fact is there isn't anything like a single voice for the Dems so they are pretty often critical of each other's opinions.

The primary differentiator I see between the ultra-right and the everyone except the radical left, and Mitch is part of the ultr-right, is that they fail to acknowledge thier own flaws - Mitch does it purposefully - he believes acknowledging his own blemishes is disingenuous as other media services have bias too, and yet you'd argue with a straight face that the right calls out it's warts? Hardly. Mitch says he refuses to (Robertson is a meaningless sacrifice). Blogs like this one do not lead to real discourse, because they are not about fact, but rather pure opinion. Mitch makes ludicrous claims that the left would "invent" Robertson, a vile allegation, and rather than being pilloried for his crassness, we're debating the irony that you say you call out your flaws. Perhaps you can start by chastening Mitch for being so base and venal?

PB

Torture? What torture? How are you defining torture?

While I'm at it from where I'm sitting G.W. and all of America are on a mission from God right now.

Badda-bumbler said: "...from where I'm sitting G.W. and all of America are on a mission from God right now."

From where you're sitting? You mean from your ass?

The Blues Brothers, now *that* was a mission from God.

If the Blues Brothers were on a mission from God (which included charity, smacking bad guys, and wrecking property) then we CERTAINLY are on a mission from God.

Boy, you're not even style over substance, Clown... you're bile over substance. ;)

Mitch,

Dean has done the Democratic party no favors with some of his over the top rhetoric but he's no Pat Robertson. Dean may have said he hated Republicans but he never advocated killing them. Furthermore if the Democrats were going to invent Pat Robertson we'd make him taller, give him a big Texas sized hair style and have him rub his hands together intermittently while emitting a demonic cackle. http://www.governor.state.tx.us/divisions/press/photos/ChertoffAndPerry.jpg?size=xlarge

Earlier Dems already did invent their own Pat Robertson... President Johnson.
;)

Yes, Lyndon did have frequent tete-a-tetes with the Almighty.
Dean is analagous to Robertson in this sense: He completely alienates the center while energizing the fringe.
While Robertson is a constant annoyance and embarrassment to the vast majority of republicans, Dean runs the DNC. And, for the love of Condi Rice, I hope he continues to run the DNC through '08.
PB -- Your bit about the far left being willing to acknowledge its own flaws had me laughing for hours. My ribs are killing me. You are missing your calling as a writer of comedy!

Johnson's problem wasn't that he spoke to God... something tells me he also demanded a return message.

Phipho-
Robertson never advocated killing Democrats for crying out loud...he did say that Chavez might be a good one to go after before he goes after us....not that stupid if you ask me. The left (and many on the right) twist Pat Robertson's words to sound far more outrageous and unreasonable than they really are. Pat Robertson's religion (just like Bush's) is what sticks in people's craws.

Blofeld & PB-
Re bush talking to God, you might want to read http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/13/AR2005101301688.html
If Bush talks to God, he denies it. It's yet another fantasy of the left I fear. And if you think that Larry David is a valuable commentor on how the country should be run, well, that explains the downward spiral the Democrat's have been in since '72.

Colleen,

Sorry about the lack of clarity in my message. I did not mean to imply that Pat "buck buck buck from my AK 47" Robertson had wished death upon democrats. I also must admit that I did find the biblical references that Pat was basing his death wish for Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on while teaching Sunday school this morning. Imagine my shock as I open the book of Matthew and there it is chapter 5 verse 44. "Jesus said to the gathered, You have heard it said you shall love thy neighbor and hate thy enemy and I have always pretty much been alright with that. For if someone shall put forth any of that socialist crap within thy reign of influnece thou should put a cap in his a#%". There it was in black and white, the kids were a little bit shaky with it at first but when little Johnny Evans caught billy hoover outside class. He blind sided him and kicked the living snot out of him. It was great, the minister and I sat back and laughed and ate popcorn. This church thing is going to be highly entertaining now that you and Pat have revealed all to us. I owe both of you big time. Larry Braxton better have that 5 bucks he owes me next Sunday or me and the fellas are gonna do a drive by on his ace after choir practice!

Phipho-
If you want to find passages where God tells His people to destroy His enemies, you should try the Old Testament. Misquoting the Bible when there isn't any need to just makes you look bitter and foolish as well as blasphemous. I don't think that's your intention.

Gee kind of like Pat Robertson, how embarrassing ( just to be clear I meant the bitter, foolish and blasphemous part of course).

As usual in the case of leftists, you're chock-full of love yourself, phipho! You can tell...it just oooozes from you! Fool.

God has wrath. It will be poured out. Read Revelation.

How are you defining torture?
Posted by badda-blogger at January 7, 2006 08:55 AM

Reading one of pb's posts?

Kermit,
Of course we must take a little blame... we're torturing ourselves a bit by reading any percentage of his blah-blah. ;)

Nah, I think you all are doing your pennance by simply reading this blog.

As for "hate your enemy", in Psalm 101 (I think) it says, "though preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies" and as well elsewhere "if your neighbor strikes you, turn the other cheek to him so that he may strike that also", finally "that whichsoever is held over by any of you, so shall it be held over in heaven."

Hmmm... sure is preaching that we should hate what is different from us. By the way, the intollerance of intollerance meme (Mitch's lame word), is specious nearly beyond words. The concept that those who tollerate differences that are not of choice, are not concious decisions of immorality should tollerate those who hate, preach actions of bigotry against those who are different, is so foolish, so base, and so misrepresentational of the subject as to qualify to be yet another of Mitch's long-winded, meaningless posts. To tollerate hate, as a measure of aspousing love, is hypocrisy. Calling not accepting hate, intollerance, is unmitigated gaul.

Robertson is hate-filled, and walks in the path of Christ (IMHO) as much as a rock does. It is not his skin-color, his sex, his ethnicity, or his sexual orientation which causes it, it's his ignorance, selfishness, and mean-spriritedness, wow, that describes more than a few people I occassionally hear from.

PB

PB-do you actually know Pat Robertson? Have you heard him speak and watch his hsow? Anything? Or, have you "heard" he's hate-filled?

You're full of crap. And here's a little tip:

intolerant
tolerant
tolerate

And here's another little tid-bit my tolerant leftist fool:

Jesus of Nazareth stated, "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

And the sword is the Word of God. The Truth. Pat Robertson knows the Bible better than you do. You can't just pick out the verses that support your arguments and then sit back and think you're going to hear an "atta-boy" when you deny Jesus as your Savior. If you didn't deny Him you would know where Pat Robertson is coming from.