Wait a minute Mitch, I’m confused here. I thought that we’ve been told for months now that the whole Valerie Plame/Joe Wilson thing was about Republicans trying to retaliate against Democrats by threatening to endanger them and their families.

Now it turns out that the only people threatening people’s lives in retaliation are the one’s who were supporting Joe Wilson?

Go check out Ace Of Spades too, for more reporting on the level of crazy that has been spreading around lately.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/187895.php
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/187772.php

You think maybe it's the summer heat causing some of this?

(And, er, no bet on the Olberman thing. Since when does he care about credibility?)

Unethical bloggers. Almost as shocked as when I learned that people advocating a tax hike leaned left-of-center.

"Unethical bloggers."

Actually, Leopold started with the LATimes.

You know - one of those people with checks and balances and all.

Truthout has so far stood behind Leopold's story. They say his Rove story was backed up by other sources -- but they refuse to say who those other sources are. Truthout is pushing the notion that there was a sealed indictment of Rove, and that Fitzgerald has held off using it because Rove has agreed to testify against people higher up, that is, Dick Cheney. I suspect that when the truth is out, these 'other sources' will prove to be as unsound as Leopold or may actually be more of Leopold's sock puppets.

There is, I think, another web scandal for the left developing at the anti-bush website capitolhillblue.

When I think of all of the time and energy the Left has devoted to “getting Karl Rove” on such a patently phony accusation, I’m conviced that at the end of the day we will discover that Jason Leopold was really either a sock puppet for Karl Rove or Old Man Smithers, caretaker of the Abandoned Amusement Park trying to get back at those meddling kids.

Thorley-
My theory is that many or most leftists are simply unable to admit that most American voters (or slightly less than most in 2000) would choose someone like Bush over Gore or Kerry. So they invent impossible conspiracy theories about diebold and the suppression of black votes, or cast Rove in the role of evil super villain. No one in the republican party has as nuch emotion invested in Rove-the-Hero as the dems do in Rove-the-villain.
The funny thing is that Rove is very happy to talk about how he get the turnout to vote in his party's advantage; he exploits grass roots networks of friends and aquaintances, he knows which message works for which group of potential voters, and he's very, very good at making sure he doesn't waste money in an election where he cannot possibly get 51% of the vote.
By contrast this year the dems seem to be betting the midterm elections on promising to raise the minumum wage, despite the fact that the large majority of people who work for minimum belong to a demographic that historically does not turn out for off year elections.

"By contrast this year the dems seem to be betting the midterm elections on promising to raise the minumum wage, despite the fact that the large majority of people who work for minimum belong to a demographic that historically does not turn out for off year elections."

And their whole Social-ist healthcare plan too eh? I mean, those people who can't afford health care are in a demographic that is historically to lazy to live anyway right Terry?

Funny how those wacky Democrats can take "principled" positions like a living wage and affordable health care even when there's little chance that it will pay off in votes from the people it is intended to benefit huh Terry...

Oh. By the way, I ran into Jesus a couple of days ago at the farmers market. I told him you said "hi" but he said he had no idea who you are.

"principled" positions

What an interesting construct. What is a "living wage"? $20 per hour? $30? I could "live" on $150k per year.
What is missed by those who espouse "Principles" is the fact that a principle in economics (the subject at hand) is a basis that shouldn't be touched, but has great vulnerability to mismanagement and outright stupidity. It can vanish.
Please, please, please make the mimimum wage a great big plank in the Dem platform this year.

Oh, and I ran into Jesus at Home Depot the other day. He was buying some pressure-treated lumber for Terry's new deck. He said to say "Hi".

Gee, Doug, such invective! And you'll notice I never took a position on the federal minimum wage, pro or con. I just questioned the political wisdom of trying to make raising the minimum wage a signature issue in this fall's elections, and this after two paragraphs pointing out that the recent political successes of the GOP can be seen as being due to greater competence, not ideology or "principle".
As it happens in my state the minimum wage is well above the federal minimum and scheduled to go higher ($7.25/hr) in January. Our unemployment rate is among the lowest in the nation so I am not unsympathetic to idea tha a higher minimum wage will not cost jobs while the demand for labor is high.

I'm not sure why you think that religion has a place in the minimum wage debate. Progressives -- even authentically religious progressivess -- generally do poorly when they try to couple their political agenda to the divine will of a transcendant God. I suspect that this is because they're really more interested in redistributing money rather than in saving souls.
For what it's worth, Christ instructs us to perform acts of charity. The idea is that He does this because in charity the benefactor gives up something of value to him or her with no expectation that he will receive anything of worldly value in return, while the receiver knows that another human being has made this sacrifice, literally out of goodness. It's an act of agape that binds one human to another.
No one has yet successfully explained to me how the same virtue can arise when the giver takes the money from an unwilling third party and the recipient is told that it is his or her right to receive it.

Kermit-
"Oh, and I ran into Jesus at Home Depot the other day. He was buying some pressure-treated lumber for Terry's new deck. He said to say "Hi". "

Actally the biggest issue vexing me at casa del terry these days is wild pigs that come by night & tear up the lawn. Lemme check the ol' KJV. Let's see . . . here it is:

"And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea."

Pretty handy guy to have around.

Kermit. You're a liar. Jesus is a carpenter by trade and real tradesmen NEVER shop at Home Depot. Jesus buys all of his lumber at UBC and furthermore, Jesus from a country who's neighbor is famous for their cedar.

The idea that Jesus used pressure treated lumber is absurd.

Terry, you commented on the procedure Rove uses to assure votes - play to the base to turn out the voters then compare it the democrats who are in your view playing to a base that doesn't vote anyway.

OK. Where was I...?

Terry said,

"I just questioned the political wisdom of trying to make raising the minimum wage a signature issue in this fall's elections"

There are two issues here - election strategy and a specific election issue and you're conflating the two when discussing the Democrats to build a strawman argument.

Let's take one issue at a time. First, minimum wage. Some Democrats, including myself understand that the issue is political quicksand but it is still the right thing to do.

If you believe that the only people making minimum wage are kids flipping burgers at McDonalds, it's easy to argue against a raise but that's not the whole picture. There are something like 8 million workers in this country who would directly benefit from a minimum wage increase. I really doubt there are 8 million kids flipping burgers.

Further, you ask, "I'm not sure why you think that religion has a place in the minimum wage debate"

Spend some time at a Nursing home Terry and talk to the employees who make minimum and near minimum wage.

See what they do for societies millstones and tell me they - A. aren't doing they work that Jesus (and others) spoke of and B. don't deserve a fair wage for doing that work.

You also said, "Christ instructs us to perform acts of charity."

Was that the same Christ who said, "sell everything you own and give to the poor?"

Charity doesn't change bedpans or treat open wounds on an indigent seniors legs. People do.

...and while I'm on the subject of religion, You said,

"Progressives -- even authentically religious progressivess -- generally do poorly when they try to couple their political agenda to the divine will of a transcendant God."

This is another false assumption. I can't speak for EVERYONE who would claim to be progressive, but for myself and every progressive I know, even "authentically religious progressivess" (whatever the hell that means) would never couple their political agenda to the will of God in the first place. That's your trick. Not ours.

That's like this guy, http://espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/cooler_packers.jpg
comparing the Green Bay Packers to the Minnesota Twins and boasting that the Twins suck at 3rd down conversions.

As for Rove and the Strategy issue, I hate to break it to you but we don't see Rove as an evil super villian - just a wealth vicious little man who has turned his Antisocial Personality Disorder into a successful career with the GOP.

Thanks, Terry. It's obvious you understand that coerced agape is worthless. Doug may rant about nursing home workers getting "minimum and near minimum wage" but he misses one very real point. Maybe they do this work Because of that agape.
In Doug's VERY authoritarian world government must regulate all aspects of society so as to bring about a sense of fairness. Be it natural or not. I doubt Doug has any sense of the supernatural.

"Was that the same Christ who said, 'sell everything you own and give to the poor?'"

Yup. The same Jesus who said "To those who have much, more will be given. To those who have little, even that shall be taken from them."

The devil can quote scripture to his own purpose.
(That's Shakespeare, not Jesus).
Am I lying? Jesus doesn't shop at the farmer's market. People bring food to him.

Kermit said,

"Doug may rant about nursing home workers getting "minimum and near minimum wage" but he misses one very real point. Maybe they do this work Because of that agape."

I just got done saying they do it because of a calling to serve putz. You believe that it should all be volunteer or charity. Ever been to a Nursing home Kermit? I'm unfortunately there all the time. Let me tell you the one thing I don't see... Big groups of volunteers - even authentically religious volunteers - there to help.

"In Doug's VERY authoritarian world government must regulate all aspects of society so as to bring about a sense of fairness."

I thought we were talking about one issue - raising minimum wages. How do we go from that to your claim that I would like to see the government regulate all aspects of society? Oh. I forgot. It's Kermit were talking about here.

"I doubt Doug has any sense of the supernatural"

You would be wrong as usual.

Oh and kermit...

"Am I lying? Jesus doesn't shop at the farmer's market. People bring food to him."

I didn't say Jesus was shopping at the farmers market. I said I ran into him there. He's had to take a different job outside of carpentry since he developed his severe phobia about nails.

"Ever been to a Nursing home Kermit?"

Yes.

"See what they do for societies millstones and tell me they - A. aren't doing they work that Jesus (and others) spoke of and B. don't deserve a fair wage for doing that work."
"I just got done saying they do it because of a calling to serve putz. You believe that it should all be volunteer or charity."

I'm so glad you speak for all nursing home workers, Doug. I am certain they will all take great solace in your advocacy. Sadly, you avoid the issue, (as usual) utilizing you same old tired invective. I have a sneaking suspicion that many of these saints don't do it for the honor, but because they went to Globe College of Medical Assistance. We all rise to our own level of potenetial, don't we?
It's a comfort to know that they earn slightly better than your average retail worker...

"I thought we were talking about one issue - raising minimum wages. How do we go from that to your claim that I would like to see the government regulate all aspects of society? Oh. I forgot. It's Kermit were talking about here."

Just what in Hell is a government enforced minimum wage if not an authoritarian regulation? Good Lord almighty, Doug, at least TRY and be cogent in these silly retorts.
You're getting embarrasing.

"We all rise to our own level of potenetial, don't we?"

Yup and some of us rise fast and early enough that we can afford to quit working full time and spend more time with our families.

"It's a comfort to know that they earn slightly better than your average retail worker..."

I wouldn't know. I am not your average retail worker.

"Good Lord almighty, Doug, at least TRY and be cogent in these silly retorts."

Good God Kermit. Do try to sound a little less angry and shrill. And... Just because Terry used the word invective does not mean that it is suddenly the Times Word of the Day.

Ironically, todays word is supercilious which describes you far better than invictive describes me.

Anywho, explain how my position on raising the Minimum wage constitutes my endorsement of governmental regulation of all aspects of society. While you're at it, please list for the class the other aspects of society I've endorsed and would like to see regulated. Good Lord almighty, Kermit, at least TRY to avoid making stuff up out of whole cloth.

"I have a sneaking suspicion that many of these saints don't do it for the honor, but because they went to Globe College of Medical Assistance."

Ok Class, that would be an example of a non-sequitur.

And of course those folks were logically drawn to Globe College because changing adult diapers is such a glamorous job isn't it Kermit.

Again, I don't see volunteers and seldom see family members crowding the halls.

Are you certain you know what a strawman argument is, Doug?

No, Terry, Doug isn't capable of strawman argument, as he demonstrates with this skillfull challenge:
"While you're at it, please list for the class the other aspects of society I've endorsed and would like to see regulated."
I was not under the impression that Doug was actually endorsing aspects of society. I thought he was encouraging encumberances on them.

Supercilious? How about pedantic? I can throw around big words too! And mine actually make Sense!

As for being "angry and shrill", I don't believe I have ever come close to such a sad pass. I'm a happy conservative! One of life's winners!

And I'm absolutely certain you are not an average retail worker, Doug. I bet your above average.

Alright Kermit. Try it this way.

"While you're at it, please list for the class the other aspects of society that I've allegedly said that I would like to see regulated"

Terry, yes, I'm fully aware of what a strawman argument is. In a given week, I would estimate that Mitch uses at least one in his posts.

"Supercilious? How about pedantic?"

Yes Kermit. You can be pedantic as well but I think that more accurately describes Eracus.