How is self defence denied in Minneapolis?

Nick, Mitch can't possibly be talking about Mpls for a variety of reasons. The Populace is not diasarmed, criminials are not running amok, and the subtle increase in crime is due to less boots on the ground due to the Bush and Pawlenty budget stripping of law enformcement funds. And even under all that, the current Cty. Prosecutor has actually seen a significant REDUCTION in crime during her tenure.

So Mitch must be talking about some other city, in some other county, in some other state. Maybe he will enlighten us, but the truth might get in the way of his fiction. . . again!

Flash

Flash, would you elighten us, as to how the President of the United States and the Governor of Minnesota, bear greater responsibility for devoting adequate resources for enforcing the law in Minneapolis, than those officials duly elected by the citizens of Minneapolis?

Didn't Britain own Singapore at one time? Doesn't Singapore have some innovative penalties for minor infractions?

Might be worth importing a few canes back to the home isles.

.

I'd bet dollars to donuts Flash doesn't live in the Red Zone.

He visits downtown to go clubbing with his rapper wanna-be buddies, but pulls his pants back up to his waist when he goes back to his room in his parents house in the suburbs.

.

Will:

MPLS Police Chief:

"" (T)he rise in crime was and remains a direct correlation to staffing reductions. The [Minneapolis Police Department], as with many departments around the country, was decimated by budget cuts ... and it will take some time to recover.""

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-12-01-cops-cover_x.htm

""In Minneapolis, $6 million in COPS grants allowed the police department to hire 81 cops and boost the city's number of officers to 938 by 1997. But officials have had to cut 140 positions since then, including 38 this year. Officers are being shifted from neighborhoods to handle emergency calls; robberies are up by 20% this year, and burglaries are up 3%.""

==
through the most recent available data, serious crime has REDUCED in Hennepin County by 36% from '97 to 2004

Minneapolis Crime rates are also down 30% from 1997 to 2005
==

http://centrisity.blogspot.com/2006/05/whose-minneapolis-is-it.html

==

I understand there is a variety of reasons for the dilemma MPLS is in currently, but to lump it all on a CTY attorney that is responsible for prosecutions POST crime, without recognizing the burden being placed on these municipalities through the pillaging of important tools during the federal and State budget process is disingenuous.

Flash

"How is self defence denied in Minneapolis?"

Thanks to the state's pre-emption statute, it is currently not - although Klobuchar's office as well as all the Minneapolis state legislators fought the MPPA with ruthless, truth-deprived ferocity.

The Henco Sheriff's office is the most dilatory in the state at granting carry permits. And A-Klo's office fairly documentably works harder than any other to discourage people from shooting in self-defense, doing its damnedest to prosecute those who need to do so.

And A-Klo has, if memory serves, joined with the likes of Wes "Lying Sack of Filth" Skoglund to try to repeal Minnesota's pre-emption law (the one that doesn't allow cities to adopt "tougher" gun controls than state law allows).

You have a legal right to defend yourself in A-Klo's Henco. But Amy doesn't like it, and would love to change it.

""I'd bet dollars to donuts Flash doesn't live in the Red Zone.""

I don't anymore, but did spend a couple years off 20th and Thomas over North. Those were back in my Moby Dicks/Brady's Pub Days.

""He visits downtown to go clubbing with his rapper wanna-be buddies""

I do spend time 'clubbing' downtown, Rock Bottom being my favorite locale. If you call my "Right of Center" Insurance salesman best friend, and a "to the Right of all of you" Computer Programmer from AmeEx as rapper wannabee buddies, then I gues you are correct.

"but pulls his pants back up to his waist when he goes back to his room in his parents house in the suburbs."

I've lost a chunk of weight, so do find myself pulling my pants up often, but the new belt helps a little. As for my home, I currently live in the Midway of St. Paul, a stones throw from Mitch's abode with my lovely wife and three children. My older stepson is a 20 year old Corporal in the Marines.

Now, can we go back to discussing the issues, or do you prefer masking the truth with personal attacks.

Flash

Mitch said, "Disarmed populace; self-defence denied; criminals running amok; authorities not only impotent, but codifying their impotence?"

Completely wrong I am guessing...let's look at the UK's biggest city.

"Across London, there were 175 murders in the 12 months to March - down 10 per cent from the previous year. The figure has fallen due to more pro-active policing of low level crime and a drop in domestic violence murder cases."

http://www.london.gov.uk/londoner/06june/p6a.jsp?nav=safe

London has a population of roughly 7,500,000...and only 175 murders. The Twin Cities metro region, with half that population will probably come close to equaling, if not surpassing that number.

Looks to me like they are doing something right, perhaps having 31,000 police officers helps...but i am guessing there are other factors involved....hmmm, did any say gun control?

Fulcrum.

"The Home Office said the guidance had been circulated nationally because there had been regional anomalies in the way offenders were dealt with and these needed to be removed."

Whereas if the police in each jurisdiction operated independently, some would adopt policies that actually worked, and some would not, and the populace would be able to see the difference.

Hell, you might even see people choosing to move to communities that had effective police forces.

But that'd be that evil competition, thing. And we can't have that.

Yes, the city of Mpls. didn't receive as much in federal and state money as it would have liked. As a result, cuts had to be made. However, while the city could have chosen to cut budgets for non-essential beautification and renewal, they chose instead to gamble on underfunding the Police and lost. Meanwhile, Klobby still oversees (when she's not out campaigning) a county that routinely lets criminals off with probation for burglary, robbery, assault, etc. Despite any cuts, she could have and should have helped the Police tremendously by keeping the 70% of Mpls. criminals who are repeat offenders in jail.

Reminds me of Robin Williams imitating a British police officer to a criminal: "Stop, or I'll say stop again!"

Flash, you still haven't answered the question; why should federal and state officials be charged with making sure that Minneapolis or Hennepin County have adequate resources devoted to law enforcement? Are not the citizens of Minneapolis capable of self-government?

Fulcrum, you may wish to examine the robbery and assault statistics for London. Yes, murder is the worst violent crime, but it is not the only offense which ruins the lives of the law-abiding.

Will,

Decions are made locally based on all available information. When the State and Federal govts understand that added recousces are needed in urban corps, additional funds are provided to not burden a select few while recognizing the benefits to all.

If the budget butchers would have phased in cuts over time, giving the local entities an opportunity to absorb the costs through other cuts or additional revenues, then your point would be more valid. But significant cuts in LGA along with the virtual elimination of COPS funding in the short term created a fiscal vacume.

Flash

Ruins the lives? Of 45,311 robberies, of which 1/3 were stolen cell phones. I am guessing that cell phone theft does not ruin lives as you state.

While the article does not fully explain the categories, could imagine teh robbery numbers for hte Twin Cities if they included such things as cell phones? I am guessing that there is a higher level of crime reporting in London than here.

Fulcrum

Ful,

Your imagination aside, the crimes run WELL beyond cell phones.

Good example: In the US, the rate of "Hot" burglaries - burglaries where a resident is in the house, which are highly dangerous and frequently degenerate into assaults, armed robberies, rapes and murders - is about 12-13%, freqently inadvertent. Criminals in the US genuinely fear homeowners. In the UK, the rate *ten years ago* was over 50%, and that was *before* self-defense was repudiated (but after the citizenry was disarmed - an event which boosted the rate considerably).

Think waking up with a burglar ransacking your house with impunity doesn't "ruin lives?"

Fact: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder is closely associated with trauma against which the victim is helpless. In the US, we are not helpless. In the UK, every year the people grow more so.

A-Klo wants the same for all of us. It shows in her policies. There is no defense.

Flash, please remember that those "COP" grants were only good for five years. After that you were on your own to pay for the officers so hired. I recall thinking at the time that you had to be an real dimbulb to take those grants. You can hire a couple of new grads for the $100K and even cover the costs for the first couple of years but with union and seniority the costs really start to tick up after the grant expires. So was it really smart for the city to do that?? I wouldn't say so. It sets up just what happened. You have to cut staff when the money runs out. It's compounded by the changes in other states welfare laws, and a growing non-native population. Those factors increase crime rates. Then you hit the recession, and tighter budgets, and the grants run out. What do you think would happen.

Yes, Flash, and a local decision made based upon an assumption regarding what larger governing bodies will provide in future years tends to be a very foolish decision. The citizens of Minneapolis need to decide whether they are going to govern themselves like men and women, in terms of providing the fundamental service of government, maintaining the peace, or whether they are going to be children, and look to others to ensure the peace of Minneapolis neighborhoods. Oh, to have a Minneapolis mayoral candidate, of any party, run on the platform that all other budget items will be reduced to a marginal position until EVERY Minneapolis neighborhood is as peaceful as those in Bloomington.

Fulcrum, if you don't think that, for many citizens, having one's nose or jaw broken in the course of a robbery, cannot be a life-ruining event, you either have never have had your nose or jaw broken in the course of a robbery, or you lack empathy for how others, perhaps unlike you, can have their lives adversely affected by criminal violence which falls short of murder.

This topic makes my blood boil, for I lived in the heart of Minneapolis neighborhoods which were given up to criminals in the '80s and early '90s, as morons like Tony Bouza denied that the city had a growing gang problem. Damn those citizens and the elected officials who facilitated this outcome!

Minneapolis gets plenty of money from property taxes, they have more than enough to fully fund the police force. The mayor and city council chose to fund the NRP and a variety of wasteful programs instead of the police force.

Any city that doesn't have a stable source of funds for it's core services (police, firemen, sanitation) is poorly run and asking for trouble. Minneapolis fits that bill perfectly.

The extra LGA money from the state should be used only for things that city can do without. Afforable housing grants, NRP grants, murals, etc.

Will, do you think the thousands of visitors who use Minneapolis streets, policing, etc. each day and do not pay taxes into the city (ie don't own property there) should get those services for free? That is the basis of the state aid. You have to admit that Minneapolis in particular is in a different situation from the suburbs with respect to the total demand on those services and infrastructure relative the local residents use of those services and infrastructure.

Tracy,

Doesn't it make more sense from an allocation and accountability standpoint for the city to spend, as it has in the past, the state money on services that are a benefit to broader metro ie policing the tourist, entertainment districts which are populated in large part by non-city residents and spend their local money on local benefits such as NRP etc.

By the way the NRP is regulated by the state legislature and the city cannot simply divert money from those funds without legislature approval.

Nick, are those thousands just traveling into Minneapolis daily to hang out on street corners? Or is it more likely that they are traveling into Minneapolis to use commercial real estate, real estate which has it's assessed value reflecting the fact that thousands are traveling in to use it? The fact that Brookfield Development, or whomever owns now owns the IDS Center, physically receives the tax bill for said real estate does not obviate the fact that the tax bill is actually being paid by the users of said properties.

Minneapolis is not Mogadishu; it has an adequate tax base to provide for law and order, if the citizenry, and the officials they elect, have the will to pursue that result. The fact that they look for the citizens of Warroad or Des Moines to do it for them is inexcusable behavior for free citizens.

If the assessed value of the commercial use is where the city should get its funding, was it prudent for the state to reduce the property tax rates on commercial property as they did just prior to the LGA cuts? This cut in rates hits particularly hard in Minneapolis.

Furthermore what about the civic institutions and non-profits that don't pay taxes for example, the government center, the Dome, Guthrie, St. Thomas, etc. Clearly there are policing and service burdens placed on the city due to the use of these facilities that are not captured in the property tax structure.

Nick,

No it doesn't make more sense for the city to spend state money on services that are a benefit to broader metro ie policing the tourist, entertainment districts which are populated in large part by non-city residents...

The revenue to fund "policing the tourist and entertainment districts" should come from all the extra tax revenue those tourists bring into the city.

Isn't that what we are told when taxpayers are asked to fund some downtown improvement project? That it will bring in all this extra revenue and improve our quality of life.

I find it hard to pin the Minneapolis buget problems on the Governor when Minnepolis just built a $130 million library -- that's cost $850 per Minneapolis household (it would be more per tax-paying household). Granted that was approved by referendum, but I'm guessing that if the referendum were worded would you rather spend $130 million on increased police protection or on a public library the citizens may have voted differently.

"The revenue to fund "policing the tourist and entertainment districts" should come from all the extra tax revenue those tourists bring into the city."

If we follow your argument to its conclusion the state should be giving Minneapolis money. The city only gets property tax, and a portion of certain sales taxes that are dedicated to funding the convention center. The state gets the 6.5% sales tax spent by the tourists (since they obviously don't pay property taxes).

As for the library - that is a bonding project for an asset not a current expense item. The money used to build it couldn't be used to fund police. Other than the prinicpal and interest payments on (I'm guessing) the 30 year bonds at less than 5% which comes out to $6.5 per year. so there is a $6.5 million dollar argument there not $130 million. Furhermore the library was approved and constructed prior to the commercial property tax decrease and LGA cuts. Under a basline scenario the city would have been able to afford it.

"Minneapolis is not Mogadishu"

I like that. Somebody call RT's office. They can use it in their next PR campaign.

Nick, the rate at which Minneapolis and Hennepin County wish to tax real estate should have nothing to do with the rate at which the State of Minnesota wishes to tax real estate. That is, if the state wishes to reduce property tax rates, Minneapolis should be empowered to raise tax rates for properties within the city, if the elected government of Minneapolis so chooses. I may be ill-informed, but does not the city of Minneapolis have the power to do so now? If not, this is just as wrong as the fact that Hennepin County needs permission to from the state to impose a sales tax without a referendum.

You make an excellent case for non-profits no longer being exempt from property taxes, or having sales taxes assessed against the products and services they may charge for. That it is foolish for government on any level to own or build properties like the Target Center or Metrodome, especially without asessing ticket taxes to cover the cost of police protection associated with operating those buildings, goes without saying.

As rotten as it is for the Pohlad family to receive a three hundred million dollar subsidy to build a stadium for their baseball team, a stadium which will be technically owned by the county, and thus no property taxes will be collected on it, at least the deal calls for ticket taxes to be directed to providing for the police staffing required.

There is no polity better situated to provide for law and order in Minneapolis than the polity which resides in Minneapolis. That polity would be better served if it grew up, and stopped looking to others to do it for them.

I love it, Mitch constasntly derides lefties for their lack of factual basis, but he never provides any sources to back his statistics.

And to Tracy's comment: "The mayor and city council chose to fund the NRP and a variety of wasteful programs instead of the police force."

Apparently investing in the aging housing stock is wasteful task.

And to Will, I do have empathy for others, I just felt that "life ruining" is a very stong statement. While I fortunately have not been mugged or anything similar, I can not believe that if, as you said, "having one's nose or jaw broken in the course of a robbery," would ruin my life - it would ruin my day, my week..part of the year, just not my life. Just a semantic difference is all...

Fulcrum

Nick, I think 6.5 million dollars a year, or even 1 million dollars a year, would go a long way towards improving the lawful environment, or lack thereof, in North Minneapolis. Instead of going hat in hand to the state capitol or D.C., and saying, "Mother, may I have enough police officers to make my city peaceful?", Minneapolis should be demanding that other governing bodies butt out as to what taxing authority Minneapolis has, in order to provide for the law enforcement resources the citizens of Minneapolis deem adequate.

In theory the constitution works like this: Federal goverment gets any enumerated powers. States get all other powers. The states may delegate to local jurisdictions which powers they choose. Local government is completely a function of state law delegating power.

MN does not give its cities free reign as a taxing authority (similar to the county with the Stadium). Consequently local outcomes are largely a product of state policy.

Personally speaking as a tax accountant, I think that the tax structure iteslf where federal government and state government are funded largely through income taxes and then we change the rules and local governments are funded property taxes is problematic. This has the result of disproportionately hurting areas where much of the metro areas income is earned inside the central city but invested in property outside of the city.

Well, yes, Fulcrum, as I said, you lack empathy, in that you can only imagine what YOUR reaction would be to having your nose or jar broken in the course of an assault, and thus you are unable to imagine how other may be affected by such an event. Thanks for confirming my point.

If you've never had your bones broken in such an assault (I have), you would be well advised to adopt a less confident stance regarding what your reaction would be. No, it didn't ruin my life, but I can certainly grasp how such an event might be life-ruining for others, and, in fact, I know people for whom that description might be fitting. Also, ya' know, some folks only have few years left on this planet, so to write off a year being ruined, if one were that lucky, as a "semantic difference" is a bit cavalier.

Nick, you stil fail to address the point that if all that income is being earned on real estate within the city, that real estate is quite valuable, relative to other real estate. Having said that, I do think local governments should have more taxing authority, in that it would allow local government to better plan for public safety. This is what the cities and counties should be lobbying for; the power to assess taxes for essential public services as they see fit.

"Mitch...never provides any sources to back his statistics."

Which stats? The Hot Burglary figure? That comes from a Home Office study from about a decade ago.

Here is one of the more authoritative of many references, by David Kopel, one of the leading writers on the subject:

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/LawyersGunsBurglars.htm

I'll take you to the footnotes.

"[FN105]. See Bureau of Justice Statistics, Household Burglary, supra note 102, at 4 tbl. 8 (citing 12.7%).

[FN106]. See Kleck, supra note 23, at 140 [in Kleck's book, "Point Blank - Gun Violence in America"]. The reduction in the rates of assault and rape would be diminished, however, to whatever degree that today's home invasion burglars are more violent than the burglars who avoid homes. More than half of home invasion burglars are relatives or acquaintances of the victim. See Philip Cook, The Technology of Personal Violence, in 14 Crime and Justice: A Review of Research 56 n.19 (Michael Tonry ed., 1991). If the rate of home invasion by burglars who are strangers rose, these strangers might not be so personally hostile to the occupants. Also, it is possible that current group of home invasion burglars (who invade despite the risk of being shot), may be temperamentally more aggressive than burglars as a whole. Thus, if more burglars began perpetrating home invasions, these burglars might be less inclined to assault or otherwise attack the victim."

So yes, Fulcrum; I challenge lefties' facts, and I deliver them. I don't always keep them ready for immediate linking - I plead time crunch - but if I write it, to the best of my knowledge it's the truth and I've seen a cite on it in the past.

In short - if you read it here, it's probably the unimpeachable truth :-)

There isn't necessarily a high correlation between the income earned on real estate and the income earned by the lessors of that real estate. For example a law firm may have a fantastically profitable year however that has no bearing on the amount of rent they pay (and consequently on the value of the property they lease). I don't believe that property values are a good proxy for what drives costs in urban settings.

A better example would be two bars next to each other paying the same rent. One packs the people in and the other does a decent business. Clearly the busier bar is going to demand more services from the city. The relative income of the bar is generally going to be a better indicator of the intensity of use than the property value.

If that is the case, Nick, why doesn't Faegre and Benson relocate to an abandoned strip mall in Robbinsdale, instead of leasing their considerably more expensive space in downtown Minneapolis? Is the electricity for powering computers and phones of a higher quality on Marquette Avenue? Yes, there are exceptions, particularly for new enterprises enjoying explosive growth, but generally speaking real estate on which large sums of money are being earned is worth considerably more than real estate on which considerably less money is being earned. When one also considers that owner occupied residential property is still substantially tax favored, in comparison to commercial or rental residential property in Minnesota, then the disparity you speak is even less pronounced.

Flash - good come-back! Glad to hear you're in the Midway and not in the Red Zone. It's a lot safer over here.

Which was Mitch's point. You, as a St. Paul Midway resident, already live in a safe neighborhood. It's made safe by your police, paid for by your property taxes. You should have no responsibility for cleaning up crime in Minneapolis.

Your local taxes go toward your own local crime problem (if you live by Mitch, not too bad a problem, but wander over near St. Agnes around 2:30 Saturday morning and you'll be wishing you had that shoulder holster on. And be glad you're in St. Paul where the County Attorney isn't running for higher office so she doesn't need to win points with the DFL by prosecuting a bad old gun crime committed against a member of a historically oppressed minority group).

It's not the President's job to patrol Frogtown. It's not the Governor's job to patrol Frogtown.

And it's not their job to patrol the Red Zone, either. It's Minneapolis' job.

If they don't have enough money from the feds and the state to pay for all their city services, then they should do what anybody else in a tight budget must do - prioritize. Essentials before luxuries.

Public health and safety is Essential. Clean water and sewer disposal (paid for by user fees), police and firefighters (paid for by property taxes). Everything else is a luxury.

If you're on the City Council, your city doesn't have enough money to pay for those things, and you can't raise the money because of levy limits or some other legal (non-political) reason, then close the libraries, stop mowing parks, close the rec centers, defer street repairs, layoff all non-police and firefighter personnel . . . make the hard decisions you were elected to make.

But don't moan and complain that other people aren't paying the freight for your city. We're paying the freight for our own cities.

.

If I'm not mistaken, Nick, a Summit Pale Ale in Minneapolis is taxed more than one in Edina, due to tax differences. Serving liqour is an economic activity with somewhat unusual effects, in terms of demands on public safety resources, and thus local governments should have the power to assess taxes on that activity as they see fit. This is what local governments should be lobbying for.

Fulcrum is showing utter ignorance. People in the UK are almost at the mercy of the criminal elements (mostly "youth"). Older people do not go out to do the simplest errands because they will be bashed and robbed...or maybe just bashed for the hell of it. Read a little Theodore Dalrymple-he's an expert on what's happening to the Brits and it's UGLY. People who are mugged can have long-lasting head injuries (that means brain damage, fulcrum). You think that's not something that ruins a person's life? And it's RAMPANT.

Nick,

Your point on the sales tax is a good one, however are there not additional downtown hotel, liquor and entertainment taxes that are local.

As for the bonding of the library that is a function of how it is paid for. As Will Allen correctly points out, the $6.5 million per year for 20 years could go a long way towards adding police, fire or other public safety projects.

The library is an assest from an accounting classification but the city could hardly expect to be able to re-sell it at that value, from that aspect it is an expense. The point is there is an opportunity cost to any government expenditure.

Fulcrum: "Apparently investing in the aging housing stock is wasteful task."

I agree that should be done, but it should be paid for by those who own the property and who will reap the lion's share of the benefit. Just as the Pohlads should pay for their new stadium and the Johnson familiy should pay for their new roof.

Will - My understanding is that the city only gets the property tax and the additional sales taxes is dedicated to funding the convention center (yet another regional asset that brings in tourist dollars to the state)

In any case I would like to see the cities have autonomy over their taxing rigime except compliance would be nearly impossible to administer.

Nick, if Minneapolis is already assessing sales taxes for specific purposes, why do you maintain that compliance would be impossible to administer?

Yes, the Convention Center brings in tourism revenues, revenues which overwhelmingly are concentrated in Minneapolis, making the real estate on which the hotels, restaurants and bars in Minneapolis which receive those revenues more valuable. If the added revenues fail to increase property values sufficiently to justify the sales taxes, then that is an excellent argument for not building the convention center to begin with.

In referring to administration I was referring to allowing cities to mix the types of taxes (income, property, sales tax) and the rates not a tag on like the sales tax.

I don't know the finer details of the convention center deal however I imagine that the total sales tax (MN and MPLS) raised justify the construction. The city likely used a portion of the LGA (derived from state level sales tax) to deal with the convention center costs.

Subsequently reducing LGA will changed the situation for Minneapolis while still creating revenue for the state. Except there is nothing the city can do about it since it owes the debt. This will push cuts into other areas since defaulting is not a viable solution.

I am not arguing that the city is faultless. But the idea that the city's situation IS somehow independent of the state with respect to deals like this is simply not true. Arguing that is SHOULD BE is one thing but that does not reflect a reality any of us will see.

Mitch, thanks for Monty Python reference, it made my day. Righto, what IF they come at you with a pointy stick?

Thanks for the info mitch, liked that last line, made me laugh out loud.

Will A. point taken sometimes I only see the world through my twenty something eyes, and not thru an older generations lens.

Colleen: I am sorry, talk about utter ignorance. You claim you know so much more by reading a book? You lack any credibility with me when you posted on this board the 4 year old children roaming the streets of MPLS at 1am. If you are so smart, why is it that London, a city 15 times the population only had 175 murders in the last year?

Fulcrum

Nick, my point is that instead of demanding more money from Mommy, Minneapolis whould be demanding that Mommy just shut up and leave Minneapolis alone to tax as it sees fit, although, yes, an income tax would likely be more difficult to assess, and more objectionable to the wealthy and middle class, than is worthwhile.

Of course, that would require that the citizens of Minneapolis, and the politicians that the citizens elect, accept the responsibilities of adulthood. Which means understanding that that an affluent or middle class minority, of both citizens and businesses, can vote with their feet if the majority makes decisions that the minority finds unacceptable. Time for Minneapolis to grow up.

As to Minneapolis disarming citizens, look at the city ordinances prohibiting certain kinds of firearms; they're overruled by state preemption, thankfully, but if state preemption ever goes away...

And I think the history of the MPD and carry permits is rather well-known. Hell, it's what got me involved in the carry reform movement . . .

Right now, the Minneapolis city government, not content with shutting down gun and ammo sales at Mark Koscielski's shop, are threatening him with more fines if he so much as shows a handgun or a round of ammunition to anybody during a carry class there -- how can that be interpreted in any kind of innocuous way?

Beyond that, while it's Hennepin County and not Mpls government per se, Amy Klobuchar's County Attorney's office has been doing what they can to -- unlawfully -- roust permit holders, and it's not exactly a close-held secret that she's been, err, gunning for a HennCo permit holder to prosecute for a defensive gun use.

Fulcrum, I SAW the kids with my own eyes...it's not a story. I'm not a liar. I realize in the world of the left, people often are, but not me. Did you read and comprehend anything I said? Dalrymple LIVES in the UK...he's a doctor at a prison. I don't know...I'm thinking he probably knows more about it than you do...

Plus, your statistic on murders per capita (I might have to check it out), is something that I thought somebody pointed out a few posts back wasn't completely relevant to other serious crime and the harm to citizens...but, like the old "Saddam & Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9-11", you're apparently going to just stick your fingers in your ears and keep saying it...no matter what other people say.

Well Colleen, you call lefties, liars, and I will call you, a righty, selfish. Let's see, driving through MPLS seeing 4 years olds outside at 1am by themselves, and what, let me guess, you just kept on driving? good work.

Instead of changing the subject as to other serious crimes, any thoughts on the low murder rate in london?

and wow..."Saddam & Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9-11." So tell me Colleen, what did they have to do with 9/11? If President Bush (who is a liar by the way - does that make him a liberal?) refutes this statement, i can't believe there is much truth to it. But i have heard it here before from other folks...but as usual, no links provided.

Fulcrum

Scary Colleen said: "Fulcrum, I SAW the kids with my own eyes...it's not a story. I'm not a liar. I realize in the world of the left, people often are, but not me. Did you read and comprehend anything I said?"

Deluded, anti-black racist, yes. Liar, no.

Will Allen,

You had me: "The citizens of Minneapolis need to decide whether they are going to govern themselves like men..."

Then lost me:

"...and women,"

I wasn't going to respond again, because really...it's too frustrating. BUT, just so you know I was not driving along and saw a 4 yr old wandering down the street by himself and did nothing. I was looking out a hotel window at the street below and saw groups of kids of all ages (probably ranging from 13, 14 or so to under 5) hollering and whooping it up. If their parent(s) aren't worried about them and think their older siblings are capable enough to bring them to carouse downtown after midnight (I'd bet the parent doesn't even know cuz she's not home anyway-call me racist (yet again), but it's true), I don't think I'd get very far going out there and taking matters into my hands. Actually, quite the opposite. I'd probably be called a racist or even shot.

So Fulcrum-have you looked up any writings by Dalrymple yet? Didn't think so.

hey colleen, answer my question yet? Didn't think so...

Also, this is quite the joke, "I'd probably be called a racist or even shot."

I think you just called yourself a racist.

Fulcrum