One thing about Karl Rove: he's really good at counting. Bet he'd tell you that the Republicans are pretty unlikely to pry away as many "black activist" voters as Dems are to get Hispanic voters who might otherwise have voted Republican.

Could be.

But I don't think anyone has figured out how many hispanic *legal* immigrants have decided one way or the other yet.

Just a hunch; after a generation or two, Hispanics in the US tend to be less and less sympathetic with illegals.

Are you sure this qualifies as a "base split"? I was under the impression that Ted Hayes had been a Republican for years, or at least he wasn't a Democrat. He has been know to show up and hold signs at anti-Clinton demonstrations, and his landlord raised the rent last year after learning that Ted Hayes was a Bush supporter.

Rove is the mastermind behind all this? He has masterminded getting Bush to push the Democratic position of "guest workers" and effective amnesty just so the GOP base would rebel against Bush and peel off black voters? I'd like to give that much credit, but somehow I doubt it. Still, it's been played rather poorly by the Dems. They're looking to piss off labor and blacks, but I guess Dean thinks that they have no options.

Dave is correct. Hayes is a homeless advocate in LA and a supporter of Bush. Talk about shattering stereotypes.

Mitch said that he suspected the immigrants who have been here a few year are not simpatico (my word, not Mitch's) with illegal immigrants. That was borne out in a recent issue of a Filipino newspaper that is distributed locally. Letter writer after letter writter (all Filipinos) decrided illegal immigration, arguing that the illegals bypassed the process through which the letter writers came to the USA.

" Bet he'd tell you that the Republicans are pretty unlikely to pry away as many "black activist" voters as Dems are to get Hispanic voters who might otherwise have voted Republican."

Speaking from a strictly unscientific basis, a lot of the legal Hispanics (myself included) do NOT support the demands of the illegals. Many of them feel that this cheapens and demeans the sacrifices that they made to get here legally.

Speaking for myself, I'd track the illegals down and neutralize them.

If I ever left the office.

"Bet he'd tell you that the Republicans are pretty unlikely to pry away as many "black activist" voters as Dems are to get Hispanic voters who might otherwise have voted Republican."

So who would change their vote?

If amnesty is not granted to illegals, we know the dems would never recruit a single one of them to vote.

Whether other Republicans think Bush is tough enough on illegal immigrants, or not, his position hasn't changed much, and it's never been secret.

From:
Bush's savvy attack
By Anthony York
Salon.com, July 12, 2000
http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/07/12/bush/print.html

excerpts:

As Texas Gov. George W. Bush continues his minority outreach tour, attacks on the Immigration and Naturalization Service have been a central part of his stump speeches. While speaking to the League of United Latin American Citizens last month, he proposed dividing the agency in two. Last week, addressing the annual convention of the National Council of La Raza in San Diego, Bush proposed $500 million in new spending to help expedite the backlog of citizenship applications at the INS, along with implementing a "culture of respect" at the agency. "Family values don't stop at the Rio Grande river," Bush told La Raza. "We've got to have an INS that understands that. The current INS is too stuck in the past, it's too bureaucratic."

[...]

Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan, who rode an isolationist platform to victory in the 1996 GOP New Hampshire primary, continues to make immigration a centerpiece of his campaign. On his campaign Web site, Buchanan writes: "This year, 1.3 million more immigrants will pour into the U.S. -- 400,000 of them illegal aliens. If America is to survive as 'one nation,' we must take an immigration 'time out' to mend the melting pot." But with Bush at the helm of the Republican Party, the issue has been played down during the 2000 campaign. When Bush talks immigration, it is only to bash the INS, which, in the Latino community in particular, is always good politics. And many Latinos say his message is beginning to resonate. "I thought he has really honed in on the major themes that Latino voters are looking at," said Vargas after Bush's San Diego speech last week. "He's talked about education, naturalization and the INS, as well as a lot of economic development issues. I think he's been very effective at communicating his message." Vargas also vouched for Bush's Latino bona fides, saying the Texas governor stood in opposition to his party's anti-immigration fervor in the mid '90s, which dominated the political debate in California in 1994. "While all the anti-immigrant stuff was going on in California, many folks pointed to George Bush as an example of a Republican governor who was very different. So yes, people were screaming for Republican blood in California in 1996 and '98, but at the same time, there was always an acknowledgement that Bush was a very different kind of Republican." After the GOP was decimated in California in 1998, in large part because of the rise of the Latino vote, the party turned to Bush to stop the bleeding.

Many of the jobs illegals take are not 'slave wage' jobs. After all, illegals manage to do these jobs and have money left over to send home. The jobs do, however, have a high effort-to-wage ratio, making them unattractive to US workers of all colors.
There are two alternatives to the status quo:
1) US workers fill the jobs at the same wages -- which just plain won't happen
2) Increase wages to attract US workers -- in which case prices will increase in proportion to the wage increases
So the question is, are we as a society willing to pay the cost of stopping illegal immigration?
More to Mitch's point the issue does pit democratic constituencies against each other -- union vs (some) Hispanics, African American vs immigrant, etc... a fact which doesn't get as much play as the fissures it causes in the GOP.

"Many of the jobs illegals take are not 'slave wage' jobs. After all, illegals manage to do these jobs and have money left over to send home."

They have a strategery. It's common practice for illegals to claim the max of 8 exemptions on their W-4 to pay as little witholding tax as possible. Since they aren't filing a return they keep the balance. Combine this with using social services (for free) and violating zoning laws by housing multiple families in single family dwellings and they maximize their net quite nicely.
They just break lots of laws to do it, but hey, it's not like anyone's gonna arrest them.

Gee, Kerm, sounds like those illegal aliens have it made. I'm surprised you don't renounce your citizenship, then sneak back into the country, so you too can climb on the gravy train!

Excellent way to twist what I said. Did you major in dissembling in college?

Some of us have maorals and principles, AC.

Maorals?

That would be the guiding foundations of indigienous New Zealanders.

Take responsibility for your words, Kerm, instead of simpering when somebody calls you out on them. You claim illegals "maximize their net quite nicely" and are invulnerable to arrest for breaking the law. Sounds like a good deal. Why don't you try it?

I was remarking on the strategy being employed to undercut wages in this country. You aren't calling anybody out on anything. I am invulnerable to arrest for breaking the law, by virtue of obeying the law. I maximize my net as best I can while doing this. Why don't I try it?
Tell you what, big guy. Why don't you try starting up a business, oh say, construction, and try paying legal citizens the "living wage" you lefties are always whining about. Let me know how that works out for you.

Want to know what Kerm? I did just what you suggested: I started up a construction firm: Angryclown Contractors. Incorporated today. We pay minimum wage, offer health coverage, flextime and childcare. Everybody's a U.S. of A. citizen. How 'bout you let us come over to your house and put in a nice new family room for you, Mrs. Kermit and the tadpoles? You'll be glad to know we share your Republican small-government philosophy - at least where it touches on construction "permits". Don't be concerned when we show up with sledgehammers and chainsaws. Phase I will probably be a little noisy, though.

Famly room? I thought you only did facades.

excellent rebuttals, kermit.

but i think angryclown is probably just some college kid with no real life experiences, correct? :\

" I am invulnerable to arrest for breaking the law, by virtue of obeying the law. I maximize my net as best I can while doing this"

thank you for putting it in these terms, kermit.

Thanks!!! furniture Very nice site.I enjoy being here.