So... can I wear my "I [heart] Your Vagina" button to school? 'Cuz, you know, I do.

So... can I wear my "I [heart] Your Vagina" button to school? 'Cuz, you know, I do.

Well, Mitch...you said it all!!! Thank the good Lord I wasn't given a forum in high school to blab my idiocy far and wide...I can hardly stand to think of some of the positions I took (philosophically (!)) when I was a teenager, let alone think that I would have had "grown-up" asses standing up for me against the "establishment". Aaargh. It is, as you point out so well, a case of "Look at meeeee". As is so damn much these days.

All of the examples of how far this could go that you came up with (too funny!) are as legitimate as the crap these girls are trying to pull. Do they have parents?! No, very few have actual "parents" now. Everyone is an adolescent no matter how old they are.

And what is it with so many women-mystery and dignity seems to be a concept completely lost on them. What on earth do they accomplish-and I'm not just speaking of these two twits, but the Vagina Monologues proponents in general?

And yes, the bottom line is that if this is what the ACLU has the time for, then civil liberties must truly be hunky-dory.

Mitch,

You want to guest write on our blog?

I am having difficulty typing today since I am shifting uncomfortably in my chair at the thought of some adolescent chick I don't know that lives 90 miles away from me wearing a button that features a word that isn't nearly offensive as the ones I have used to describe Luke.

LF

one wonders if the ACLU would be so quick to jump into the fray if a t-shirt appeared in school expressing love and support for God or the 2nd amendment.

Hold the phone, people. If memory serves, did not Woodbury or some other south metro school not have some kids banned from wearing pro-life or pro-heterosexual tee-shirts? I could be wrong.

Gee, a student who wants to "express" himself that "Straight Pride" is good gets banned.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ac9e98b196b.htm

But....I guess there are different rules if you are promoting liberal causes, huh?

This is just more wreckage from where the Feminist ship hit the jagged rocks. Yessiree, the "right to power" ended right where it began, in the crotch. It's more in your face now than ever, of course, but has lost whatever legitimacy it might once have held. That's because there is no dignity anymore, no quiet resolve, no principled debate but instead just a roiling cesspool of moral equivalence and relative truth. "Equality" has neutered reason. The result is political masturbation for me, but not for thee, and we do this by embracing the self-exploitation of children claiming it's all "independent self-expression" so long as it's consistent with the Feminist cause. If the buttons said "I (heart) dick" the poor dears would probably be rushed off to "treatment" in the land of psychotropic medication. But "equality," y'see, and "free speech," makes a walking advertisement for nubile young girls' genatalia okay. They're wemyn, afterall. Hear them roar.

So, let me get this straight: according to the ACLU wearing those buttons is okay, but not a student brings a Bible to school ? I could be wrong, but I'm not sure that this is what the Founding Fathers intended.

I made some very similar comments last night on this subject at our MOB blog Anti-Strib.
http://anti-strib.blogspot.com/

My counter protest shirt ideas:
* I (heart) my penis.
*My penis (hearts) your vagina too.
*Power to the penis!
*I (heart) my glock

I just hope there is a republican club or a protest warrior chapter there to take on these dips.

Personally, I'd just give everyone a "I (heart) my vagina" button -- including the men. You know how those hippies just *love* being seen as conformists...

Boy, you're really going off the deep end here Mitch.

Do you honestly see no distincion between the word "vagina" and taping up porn centerfolds? Of course you do - you're not stupid. But you are being disingenuous to rile up your friends. Which is apparently really, really easy to do.

I see no distinction Chuck, free expression is just that, and open to anybody's own interpretation.

If you open Pandora's (box).......notice I didn't use the word "vagina"....oops too late....shift...shift..uh, gotta go.

"Do you honestly see no distincion between the word "vagina" and taping up porn centerfolds? Of course you do - you're not stupid. But you are being disingenuous to rile up your friends. Which is apparently really, really easy to do."

What's disingenuous?

Luke's premise was that, since she's cute and all googly over her sexuality, she's got a right to express it, no matter how that might shock or disrupt what's going on around her.

So would I have a similar right?

The only difference between a button homage to "Vagina Monologues" and a nude centerfold is that the play is "art", while the centerfold is "porn". OK, fair enough. So how about art nudes? Cabaret burlesque? Something that fits under the same hopelessly broad rubric - as a *celebration* of my male sexuality, mind you, not to shock or disrupt, nossiree bob.

I'm only being as disingenuous as you want to think I am.

Am I the only person who thinks that the right thing to do would have been to IGNORE the button, thus depriving her of the attention she was seeking?

Perhaps you'd care to discuss why we might here "vagina" on TV, or we can go to a library and look up information about vaginas [or penises, for that matter] - but pornography is not allowed in either of those places?

Who's being disingenuous now, Chuck - you know as well as I do that neither the young lady's button nor the play to which it refers is the sort of clinical description of anatomy that it would need to be to be on television. Luke himself said it; it's about her *sexuality*, not her anatomy. Or are you rewriting your colleague Francl, ex post facto? Either you're being obtuse, or the young lady from Winona is.

And that's what's behind my suggestion that we switch to artistic nudity, which you can find in the library, and to some extent on TV (esp. Public TV, which is analagous enough to public schools).

Because high school guys have sexualities to celebrate too, dagnabbit!

I'm going to accelerate the production of my new theatrical production, "Dick Drama", a study of male sexuality through history, its limitations and impacts on life. I'm looking for a vendor to print 10,000 "I Love My Dick" buttons. Then, I'm going to get the ACLU to start distributing them to schools.

Who's with me?

I'm with ya, Mitch! I have a suggestion for a new title, though. How about....The Dick Discourse?

Well, all Luke did was restate what was going on in his own words. You keep holding it up as "Luke's premise" which is silly. Anyway.

Obviously vaginas have something to do with sexuality. The button says "I *heart* my vagina". The point I'm making is that the word "vagina" is not obscene, and that's why you can look it up in the library and hear it on television. The same holds true of the play, "The Vagina Monologes" - makes no difference, it's not obscene to say that or refer to it. I'm not being disingenuous, I'm making a point. You seem to be ducking it.

Porn centerfolds are obscene. A button saying "I want to shove my dick in your c*nt" is probably obscene. You don't see this on TV or in the library, or in schools (duh). Why? Well, that's where you get into gray area. Community standards, and all that jazz. I think the school would have a real tough time arguing that button is going cause some sort of disruption amongst the students - I'm mean c'mon, how much more tame can you get?

You're most upset that the button represents a play which represents feminism, and you hate feminism. Fine. But why do you hate free speech?

Feel free to make your dick buttons and your "Dick Drama" - you're just the guy to do it.

Question Chuck:

Then you don't have a problem with a kid at Woodbury H.S., wearing a tee-shirt that says "Straight Pride", right? Ala 2001?

Dave: Nope.

"You're most upset that the button represents a play which represents feminism, and you hate feminism. Fine. But why do you hate free speech?"

Bzzzt. I am, by any rational measure, at least as ardent a feminist as you are, Chuck. I'm being charitable and, yes, conservative. I have a daughter; there is no way in hell you could possibly want equality for women any more than I do.

As to "hating" free speech - STEP AWAY FROM ATRIOS! Dissent does not equal hate! I think Miss Winona's point is specious, precious and obtuse. Also, beating other people over the head with your sexuality may fall under the broad definition of free speech, but it also counts as "bad taste" and "imposition on others", which is merely rude. I don't care if she wears her silly little button; I have every right to call her on it, and on wrapping her precious little stunt in the Constitution.

Or DO I have that right? WHY DO YOU HATE FREE SPEECH, Chuck?

"Feel free to make your dick buttons and your "Dick Drama" - you're just the guy to do it."

I'm sorry - I didn't hear that.

Okay... so you agree she has the right to wear it, but you just think it's narcissistic, etc.? Well I'm glad we can agree on something (her right to wear it). And, that we both hate free speech with equal fervor.

Re: dick buttons/Dick Drama - interpret up.
I'll start worrying if you make "I *heart* your dick" buttons though.

"You're most upset that the button represents..."

Actually, Chuck, I'm *most* upset that the button represents the fact that left-wing beliefs are tolerated, nurtured, and even encouraged in schools, while those of conservative students are quashed mercilessly.

Students in Saint Paul can do their "community service" time with Planned Parenthood, but not with, say, CCRN or the Pro-Life MN, if they're so inclined.

They can't openly pray to the Christian G_d in school, but they are taught the broader points of Native American spirituality and paganism in class.

If they dare to voice political beliefs to the right of Paul Wellstone, many (*many*) teachers castigate or ridicule them in class.

If they try to start a conservative student group, they face officially-sanctioned discrimination in funding, space, and ability to act like a school group.

Politics aside: They are rewarded for being girls and young women; they are punished and stifled for being boys and young men.

That'd be my "main" problem, Chuck. Feminism? Pffft. Not even on the top five.

Those are some good points, Mitch.

But "They are rewarded for being girls and young women; they are punished and stifled for being boys and young men"

Oh boy... well, to be blunt, our culture has a history of letting boys be boys, looking the other way when that leads to date rape, and that sort of thing. I know this will be a hot button for you. Has it swung too far the other way now, in reaction to that, to protect girls? Maybe, maybe.

I heard Ms. Rethlefsen on a couple talk shown yesterday and she insists that her button isn’t about sex, it’s supposed to call attention to violence against women. Right, I was a 17 year old boy once and if I saw an 18 year old girl wearing an “I (heart) my vagina” button, I wouldn’t have been reminded of the horrible oppression of women, I would have been thinking about, well, her vagina.

The tragedy of this is she seems to be a very bright kid with an interest in science and she is going to major in “women’s studies” in college. What a waste.

Okay, I am way late to the conversation on this one. I have 5,000 things I want to say, but I'll try to keep it brief. And please: before you jump down my throat anyone, read my whole comment.

When the Vagina Monologues first began - its first inception - I really dug them. For my own personal reasons that I will not go into. Eve Ensler's mission was to celebrate. That's all. You may scorn the idea, but please: try to understand that some of us out there might have needed that message. The original inception of it was a lifeline. For me. Eve Ensler told a story about a 67 year old woman who, after reading the book, masturbated and had an orgasm for the first time. She wrote a letter to Ensler, and the text of that letter makes me cry every time I read it. I needed to hear the message of that book, and I am grateful for it.

Then it changed. It became about Violence for Women ... vaginas became symbolic of violence against women. Camille Paglia wrote a BLISTERING critique of how the whole project morphed into this angry anti-male thing - It did not begin that way. Judging from the responses in this thread, nobody will believe me, but oh well. Paglia just BUSTED on it, saying that equating "vaginas" with "violence" was just plain old wrong. And I agree - Paglia articulated (as she so often does) what went wrong with this project. It became angry, shrill, and - to put it mildly - NOT a celebration.

Or - it still was a celebration, but it became an exclusionary celebration. Huge difference. It turned me off, and I stopped paying attention to the whole Vagina Monologues thing. It was like she had lost the plot.

My thing with this whole I Heart my Vagina nonsense is this:

Where I differ now with Eve Ensler and her mininons is that - for me, saying I Heart My Vagina does NOT also mean I Hate C*ck. It seems like all this "I love my vagina" stuff now means: "We hate men". That's feckin' bullcrap, in my opinion.

I can heart my vagina and heart penis at the same time. (I know. I sound like a jackass. It's all Eve Ensler's fault.)

I don't like the angry exclusiveness of the I Heart My Vagina message (as it is used by Eve Ensler now). It's hostile, and meant to put people off. At least that's my view. I'm not into that, and I am truly sad to see that what was once a lovely and heartwarming project (and again - I can already hear the scorn and contempt half of you on this thread are going to throw my way. Fine. Deal with it.) has become such a nasty shrill anti-male message.

I want a button that says: "But does your vagina heart you?"

I want a button that says: "But does your vagina heart you?"

Red-sorry...you're right. I am scornful. I will never care whether or not a 67 yr old woman had an orgasm for the first time. Now she can go to her grave happy or what? Otherwise her life was a drear wasteland and now it's worth celebrating!? Actually, I find it hard to believe....

For God's sake....we are MORE than our genitalia...waaaay more.

Colleen - then it's obviously no use me saying anymore. My reason for interest in this is personal, and like I said, I won't go into it. Scorn me if that's what floats your boat. Kinda rude, but whatever.

And lastly:

1. I did not say we are only our genitalia - uhm, did I say that?
2. I did not imply that 67 year old woman had had a dreary life up until then

I said nothing of the sort.

Sorry to be rude-that is not the intent. But, I'm fed up with this whining generation of self-centered women. That something traumatic happened to you, I'm very sorry. But for the most part, women nowdays have no idea about a truly hard life. Think seriously about it. There was no room in former times for this constant introspection centered on ourselves and all our parts! It's sick.

While so many women are busying themselves with crap like this, their daughters are having sex in 5th grade-are cutting themselves and comitting suicide-getting pregnant...all in record numbers. Being happy and having plays and celebrating our "womanhood" sure has made everybody happier than pigs in shit, hasn't it?

When you have a severe hurt and pain in your life there is only one person to help you. Jesus. Now I can be thought of as the religious fanatic besides. But the peace is real.

Red,

I remember Paglia's critique of VM, and it has a lot to do with my attitude about the whole thing.

I made the point on the show yesterday - feminism used to be "equity feminism", the push for equality and the right to enjoy life as much as guys (in theory) do. Including sexuality, if you dig way back (and maybe not all that far back, if you think about it). I certainly support that - I mean, I have a daughter, and I think most fathers of daughters are equity feminists whether they know it or not.

But the identity feminists - the ones that want to preserve the anger and victimhood and what not, the ones that have hijacked education and made school such a hellhole for little boys, the ones that have done to the "Vagina Monologues" the things that you and Paglia decry - yeah, that's my beef, right there.

Female sexuality? I'm a big fan. But Ms. Rethlefsen's little stunt isn't "celebration", it's "imposition". I'll grant that my perspective is probably warped; I'm a single parent and I work full-time plus, so I don't have time and energy to "celebrate" my OWN sexuality, much less someone else's. So when someone, gay or straight, wants to intrude into my space demanding that I observe, much less celebrate, their sexuality - yeah, it's an imposition. Especially when it's not a celebration so much as it is an assault, throwing a rock through the community window.

The most abusive part, to me, is calling it "speaking out about violence against women". There's a whole post in there.

I am Carrie's boyfriend. Let me say this. She did not do this for attention. The button is not at all sexual, in the way people have been taking it. And there wouldn't be a uproar about it if the school let her wear it like they did for over a month! Let us all just remember one thing. Most of us don't have a courage to stand up for what they believe in, especially when your parents don't support you, your school doesn't support you, the community doesn't support you, and especially when your peers don't support you.

I am Carrie's boyfriend. Let me say this. She did not do this for attention. The button is not at all sexual, in the way people have been taking it. And there wouldn't be a uproar about it if the school let her wear it like they did for over a month! Let us all just remember one thing. Most of us don't have a courage to stand up for what they believe in, especially when your parents don't support you, your school doesn't support you, the community doesn't support you, and especially when your peers don't support you.

I am Carrie's boyfriend. Let me say this. She did not do this for attention. The button is not at all sexual, in the way people have been taking it. And there wouldn't be a uproar about it if the school let her wear it like they did for over a month! Let us all just remember one thing. Most of us don't have a courage to stand up for what they believe in, especially when your parents don't support you, your school doesn't support you, the community doesn't support you, and especially when your peers don't support you.

I am Carrie's boyfriend. Let me say this. She did not do this for attention. The button is not at all sexual, in the way people have been taking it. And there wouldn't be a uproar about it if the school let her wear it like they did for over a month! Let us all just remember one thing. Most of us don't have a courage to stand up for what they believe in, especially when your parents don't support you, your school doesn't support you, the community doesn't support you, and especially when your peers don't support you.

Alex,

You started so well,and ended so off-the-rails...

I never said the button had a sexual intent. However, if she wore the button every day for a month, how can you say it wasn't for attention?

As to your last sentence - imagine someone saying "Most of you wouldn't have the courage to put on a button saying "Women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen" and wear it for a month, even though your parents, family, school and peers don't support you". Right, they don't support it with a good reason; it's pointlessly inflammatory and self-aggrandizing. And "The Vagina Monologues", these days, are not a whole lot subtle than the satirical button in my example (or so I'm told).

Perhaps this is a bit TOO simplistic a breakdown of the concept but here it goes...what is school for? Is it to take young people and "expose" them to ideas and let them make up their own minds and hope they turn out decent citizens? Or is it the concept that society makes a social contract,that it educate and give the soon to be citizen (we hope) a foundation of facts and figures and information that will "prepare" the newly minted citizen (hopefully muture)to make their own critical decisions...and to contribute in some meaningful way to that same society? i.e. "paying back" to the society for its investment? I personaly feel that in recent history "education" has got off track..that it has been highjacked by persons and organizations for their own causes..thus over-shadowing what education is supost to do.I graduated in the early 80's (gezzer alert!) and even then it seemed that school had gotten off what it was suppost to do..their where people who couldn't make out a resume, balance a check book, plan a grocery list etc. isnt THAT one of the lessons schools should teach? Seems to me if she feels proud of her vagina thats information she may need to know..but not the student body at large..they need to spend THEIR time learning the stuff I talked about before. And then there is the waste of resources the school must use against ACLU..money that could be better spent...and the media crawling all over the place getting the "scoop"..and the parents demanding answers damnit!! etc. all distracting from the instruction day..just because of looookkk at meeeeee..my vagina is important!!!! look at meeee!