My point was answering Brian's questions, and I belive I did that adequately.

I wish I had more time this AM, you know I have to get on a plane.

I am a member of the same union as the teachers, I teach, and I get paid. However, I prefer the term educator, as I am not a 'Teacher' in the sense I don't have a teaching license. But I am in a classroom, all day, seeing 140+ students, and have all the same duties and responsibilites they do. And I have been doing it for almost 15 years.

Flash

Well, I was speaking in the sense that, to the best of my knowledge (after talking with you about the stuff for the past 10-odd years) that you don't have a teaching license, that you don't write curricula, and that your duties are more technical and support-related than teaching. To the best of my recollection, you're not a teacher in the same sense that my father was for 40 years.

Which isn't to say that you don't teach.

The point, obviously, was not to denigrate what you do. The point was to upend Luke Francl.

>> that you don't have a teaching license

This is correct

>> that you don't write curricula

I do, and have.

> and that your duties are more technical
> and support-related than teaching.

My last few years at my former school were like that. However, my first several years, and what I do now mirror licensed teachers' duties pretty closely

> To the best of my recollection, you're not
> a teacher in the same sense that my father
> was for 40 years.

I guess 'What is a teacher?' will be a good post for me, when I get back from Jersey!

> The point, obviously, was not to denigrate
> what you do.

But you did!

> The point was to upend Luke Francl.

Which you didn't!

All in good natured blogger banter *smile* I'll see ya when I get back!

Flash

Flash, I'm kind of dissapointed in you. We had a lengthy discussion about funding that touched on teacher salaries and benefits.

Your arguement was that teachers got no increases in salary which I found curious, because the contract now in force, which I happen to have a copy of says otherwise.

You made a couple of enigmatic statements about some difference in contractual stipulations between your wife (who you say is a teacher also) and yourself, but you also led me to believe the you were speaking from first hand experience (as a teacher).

I'm still not quite sure what it is that you do, but evidently it isn't teaching type teaching as in licensed teacher teaching. I hope that you are not trying to equate a particular union membership as the definition of "teacher".

Respectfully Flash, I must tell you that this kind of parsing and obfuscation is something I expect as a matter of course when discussing issues with most public school administrators but I guess I'd hoped for more from you.

Finally, just for the record. Lack of in-depth knowledge of a particular subject certainly has never stopped me from commenting, but in the case of public schools especially the Saint Paul School district I have put in the time and effort to know that subject VERY well as I think Mitch will attest to.

When I say that I am quoting verbatim from some district document or from personal conversations with district adminnistrators and union officials I think I have earned the right to be taken at my word.

So,

Flash are you saying that you are an unlicensed educator, who is employed as a teacher? If so, why do we have licensing of teachers? What benefits does society derive from licensing of teachers? Or, as it would seem from your own example, is licensing of teachers merely a way to limit competition within the marketplace?

On the underlying question, why is it that St. Paul schools can not afford books with a budget of $10,000+ per student, while a school such as Cretin-Derham Hall seems to get by with a tuition of $7,500? Admittedly, CDH does have other fundraising efforts, but not everyone pays the $7,500 either, since financial aid is available to those who are less able to pay.

My own theory is that some largish proportion of the $10,000 per student that St. Paul gets is consumed in that 3 or 4 story building near the brewery, which AFAIK has not a single student within it, and more is consumed at the 2 story building on west 7th between Elway and Montreal, which again, AFAIK, has not a single student within it. And I just have a feeling that more buildings are occupied by St. Paul Schools, but not directly involved in teaching. The administration of "modern" teaching seems to have grown beyond common knowledge. And salaries &benefits for the top administrators are amoung the highest for public employees within the state at any level.

Should be 'What benefit does society derive', or 'What benefits do'. Would hate to appear uneducated, but then again, I am a product of public schooling .

Oh no! I've been upended!

Truthfully, I did not know that Flash isn't a licensed teacher. I knew he works at a school, and I knew that he teaches, therefore I made the infrence that he was a "teacher". Sue me. I've only talked to him once, on the phone.

I stand by my post, though. He does _teach_ kids, and he did _take you to school._

Mr. Francl,

To "take me to school", he'd have to convince the world that Nick Coleman wrote a good, solid series of well-written columns that made a legitimate point.

So show me.

Ring ring goes the bell.

Loren your estimate of $10K\yr is $2K shy of the actual average per student outlay each year in Saint Paul which is where Flash works.

It ain't a money problem folks.

BTW. Each student's share of district overhead comes to $1,825 per year.

That is in addition to the $12K that "follows" the student to any particular school her or she attends.

So we come down to the question of why can't St. Paul schools provide books to students @ 12k per year, when private schools do it at about 2/3 that level. Actually less, since there is a jump in tuition between elementary schools and high schools. At least in my experience (Highland Catholic School and CDH).

Another way to look at things is to look at per classroom costs. For general purposes, figure an average class size of 20 students. (I think most classes in elementary school are in the 25-30 student range, but make some allowance for round figures, and/or spec. ed.) Works out to $240,000 per classroom.

Generously figure $100,000 for teacher salary and benefits.

Allow $100,000 for building costs. ( I am not sure how the school district accounts for building costs. Are they funded for in the $12,000/year/student or, bonded seperately in a different fund. Certainly utilities would be included in the current allotment.)

This leaves $40,000 per classroom. If you figure that each elementary school would have 10 classrooms, a classroom share of a $300,000 allowance(generous?) for principal & secretary salary and benefits would be $30,000.

Which would leave $10,000 per classroom for books and supplies. Or $500 per student per year.

Now obviously this is not totally inclusive. It ignores transportation, for instance. But the teacher salary and bennies probably don't total 100k, either (I am certain that the MEA would tell me that it doesn't equal that). There probably are more than 10 classrooms per school to spread the cost of the principal over. Recovery of actual school building costs (depreciation (20 or 40 years?) or rent-equivalent) may not be part of the 12k per student.

Just some fodder for thought.

From Howard Fuller --

"[People]do not make a distinction between public education, which is a concept, and the system that delivers public education. The system that delivers public education, as we’ve structured it in America, is not public education. Public education is a concept that it is in our interest to educate all our children. What makes public education public is that it serves the public’s interests. . . . . What we therefore need to do is to commit to a purpose, not institutional arrangements.

“We have to ask why people do not want low-income parents to have choice. The hypocrisy on this point is phenomenal. We have teachers teaching in schools that they would never put their own children in and then demanding that somebody else’s children stay there. We have public school teachers putting their own children in private schools. We have leaders in Congress pontificating against choice who have their own children in private schools. The argument always comes down to ‘If we let these poor parents out, it will destroy the system.” I have a question: Is it about the system, or is it about the parents and the children?”

Great point Craig. My Sister in law is a "public school" teacher in Colorado (different state, same system), and she refuses to put my nephews in public school because she knows how ad the schools are. I can cite example after example of this. But, yet the unions are dead set against school choice. Most Democrat law makers are the same in that I doubt you will ever see Ted Kennedy's grandchildren in a public school, and I doubt John Kerry's children went to Boston public schools (or DC public schools).

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