Unclear on the Concept
As I've said a time or two, there are some decent, readable lefty blogs in the Twin Cities. New Patriot is a groupblog featuring a couple of them, including Chris Dykstra, who wrote this bit about my piece yesterday about liberals' use of politics as their spiritual base.
My observation was that to some on the left, politics has replaced religion as the core of their moral and intellectual perspective on life. It's a core that, when combined with zealotry and the belief that "the ends justify the means", launches boundless problems - just like when you combine the same things with religion.
Dykstra writes:
This, of course, is the straw man argument. In this case a fictional "left" is created, unsupported by evidence of any kind, for the purpose of knocking it down.
First, I'm not creating any strawman - I'm not the first person to have noted this; I've had this conversation with everyone from pundits to dates. "Evidence?" Er, right.
It's an observation about people's behavior. If you're looking for a scientifically valid survey of the population's views on politics and religion, you're in the wrong place.
But no, it's not a straw man. I've had this discussion with people, left and right, for years now. And while I'd never say everyone on the left fits this idea - that'd be pretty absurd, right? - I've gotten agreement from people on the left that there is a significant number of people for whom politics is the religion, the philosophy, the core of their world view.
Paul Johnson in Modern Times wrote that in an era that denied God and had no otherwise coherent philosophy, politics filled the void for many; political fundamentalism and zealotry, the inevitable outliers of any religion, followed. Politics provides most of the things religion provides; the sense of belonging to something bigger, of doing something to redeem and justify one's existence, and of course a driving purpose to life.
Dykstra goes on:
I am certainly passionate about my politics. I also know the difference between politics and spirituality. The same cannot be said of the GOP. Promient Republicans argue that the separation of church and state does not exist and seek to create a "Christian Nation."
Speaking of strawmen...
Let's leave aside the diversion for a moment - being a libertarian Republican, I'm easily more dogmatic about separating church and state than most of my readers. Dykstra's preaching - the "Petition" from Sojourners magazine - isn't to the choir so much as it is to the church janitor...
...because I'm not talking about mixing politics and religion - an issue that concerns me, but is a completely separate issue. My point, that some people (primarily on the left) don't just mix politics and religion - politics becomes religion.
I'd love to discuss this with anyone who can follow this distinction: saying some liberals treat politics as a religion is not the same as saying they all do.
Posted by Mitch at
October 8, 2004 06:46 AM
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I'll admit to being less than a rhetorical genius, but even I can tell the difference between a strawman and a generalization.
Posted by: Steve Gigl at October 8, 2004 10:16 AMAmerican progressivism is linked to the Weslayan & Methodist movements of the 19th century. The idea was that by serving Man's needs you served God. Eventually the part about serving God withered away and Humanism became an end in itself. This is not to say that modern liberals believe this or even know about it, it's just the history of their world view. European socialism (excepting Blairism) has a different history. I'm being very brief here but I think I've got the gist of it right.
Posted by: Terry at October 8, 2004 01:17 PMBy the way, both Hillary Clinton and GW Bush are Methodists.
I think Terry's historical analysis is insightful.
The world's oldest sin is Man trying to replace God. For the modern Left this is happening more-or-less unconciously. It is not a direct rejection of God but rather a somewhat rather naive ignorance of the history of human nature.
Like it or not Man is hardwired to believe in a religion; it is our nature to do so. The only question is which religion do we choose to believe in.
Posted by: Gideon at October 8, 2004 05:01 PMThe notion that man can be the agent of his own salvation is sometimes called the Pelagic Heresy.
Posted by: Terry at October 9, 2004 12:47 PMTheology blogging! I love it!
Mitch:
With respect, I don't think I am unclear on the concept. The reason I called your argument, or observation if you will, a straw man, was because it fits very well into the following definition of one of the ways a straw man can be used:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
"Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticised, and pretend that that person represents a group that the speaker is critical of."
You said:
"And to so much of the left, politics is religion - the core of the person's intellectual and moral being. To a person for whom the political is the personal, it's a short jump to seeing politics as the adjunct, or even replacement for, the spiritual."
That is explicitly inventing a caricature of the left that doesn't exist. Just because more than one person has noted the same thing, doesn't make it less of a straw man. Creating straw men is the entire purpose of talking points on both sides. If it is an "Observation," then it is simply mistaken. I think you would be hard pressed to find a single soul on the left who couldn't tell the difference between religion and politics. However, I accept that to some on both sides politics can become religion-like. I acknowledge it.
Your comments would hold more water were they directed towards the GOP, whose leadership openly advocates removing the line separating church and state. Please see the GOP Platform for the state of Texas. Please see Tom Delay. Please see the recently deposed Cheri Yecke. These are most definitely not straw men. They are real people with real power advocating real changes to our republic.
Mentioning the separation of church and state is not a diversion in the least. It is simply noting what should be obvious, especially to the church janitor-- The people who can't tell the difference between religion and politics and practice both with equal zeal are those for whom politics is a tool to sculpt a religious reality. Those people are the American Christian right. They are republicans, for the most part.
Posted by: Chris Dykstra at October 16, 2004 12:30 AM