Just out of curiosity Mitch, have you decided where you will be going from the Presbyterian Church?

Mitch - wow. Have you sent them a hard-copy of this? I hope so.

I'm not a Last Times fanatic. I generally believe in the Second Coming, but don't see the Unmistakable Signs of the Coming Apocalypse that so many of my fellow Christians seem to discern. However...

There is one thing new in our time that (it seems to me) might mark it as the Last Days indeed. That new thing is a general apostasy. We've seen times of great corruption in the church in the past, but never before in history have virtually all the established church bodies abandoned the Faith wholesale. I think most interpreters have seen the Whore of Babylon in the Book of Revelation as an apostate church, and it seems to me the lady may have arrived.

Just an opinion. I don't insist on it.

I've been shamed by statements and actions from my Anglican and Episcopal church leadership in the last few years, but this takes the cake.

I took my feelings to my priest, who said that local churches need not necessarily support the statements or actions of the bishops. For now, that's fine. But I've got a close eye on them. I think we're seeing the elimination of the church as a moral force for society, as it tries to become a political one.

What to do? I'm focusing on the societal outreach of my church and ignoring the fools who "run" it. They'll go away someday. Hopefully the church will still be there when they do.

Mitch, in the spirit of completeness, you should note that the Confessing Church in Nazi Germany was a group of Lutherans who opposed the state. Admittedly, it was a minority of German Christians, but nonetheless I don't think they should all be painted with a single brush. If you haven't seen the PBS special on Dietrich Bonhoeffer ("Bonhoeffer: Agent of Grace"), I highly recommend it.

Yikes, Mitch, good going. I have been watching my own Catholic Church closely, lately, and I do not contribute to certain "appeals" because of where they send there money. I always prefer to give it directly to my very own parish. I have no plans to leave the Church, but I do differ with some "social justice" issues. This has NOTHING to do with proper dogma, and so far, I am able to keep them apart. Of course, I am blessed to live in a great parish which is careful not to be political.

Way off topic, what happened the the Conceal and Carry thing? I do away for a week and the roof falls in.

Silver

Mitch--

Here's a link where I recount a similar struggle with the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=11638#c0151

From there I migrated to the ELCA, where your average congregation (although not including my church in rural Wisconsin) is flirting with such notions as "divesting from Israel," "cultural exchanges with the Palestinians," yatta yatta yatta.

Once the ELCA spends one cent of my money on a Palestinian cause.... I'm going to have to start my own church, I guess.

Well done, sir.

A man shipwrecked alone on a deserted island was finally rescued after several years on the island.

When the rescue party landed on the beach, the man invited them up to his living quarters about a quater mile inland so he could gather his meager belongings.

When the rescue party arrived at the small clearing where he lived, they saw three grass huts.

The leader of the party asked the man why he had three huts.

His response: The hut on the left is where I live and the hut on the right is where I go to church.

So the leader asked him about the hut in the middle.

His response: Oh that. That is where I used to go to church.

Sorry, couldn't resist the opportunity to post the above.

On a much more serious note, this PCUSA situation is just sad and disgusting. What more can one say?

Thorley: No, I haven't. The problem is, the basic theology of the Presbyterian Church (in general, not just the PCUSA) is so very sound, I hate to turn my back on it. There is no Protestant denomination whose theology just plain makes sense like that of the Presbyterian Church. The problem when you get into politically-conservative denominations is that so many of them flirt with so many things I find theologically unsatisfying (near-exclusive basis on the spirit as opposed to the other legs of the trinity, for example) or just plain dubious (predestination). So there are no easy answers to this question.

Red: I believe I will. Thanks.

Lars: I don't think it's *quite* that bad; I think the majority of Christian churches are still focused on actual worship of the actual God. It's just that the whiffle churches have such high profiles.

Brian: I like that approach. The problem is, you have to really work to find clergy in the PC here in the Twin Cities that aren't pseudo-PC-episcopal caricatures. They CAN be found - I've found several, and gone to their congregations. It just takes work (especially given the PC's policy of moving people around constantly).

Silver: I do the same. As to the MPPA - we're waiting to appeal to a sane judge. My on-air calls for a mob to chase Judge Finley down University Avenue with sticks seems to have gone unheeded.

Pete(Alois): I'm going to have to use this.

Randman: LOL! And what can one do? Well, I've done some moving around, church-wise. I guess it's to the point where I have to fight or switch. I'm more of a fighter. The structure of the Presby church is such that fighting can yield rewards (church operations, as opposed to theology, are very democratic), but I'm not a member of a specific congregation right now. I'm going to have to fix that.

King: I'm aware of the Confessing Church. I was referring directly to the activities of the mainline German Catholic and Lutheran churches, who had an immense moral blind spot when it came to the treatment of the Jews. Goldhagen called it part of the German character of the day; eliminationist anti-semitism was an integral part of of German "Volk" and culture. The case can be made that anti-semitism is part of the left's culture. It'd be hard to distinguish that notion from the PCUSA's decision.

Mitch,

You should check out the Mormon Church: http://www.mormon.org/

Theologically sound, a rock-solid moral anchor, quite conservative on most everything. In addition those who join seem to find something immensely satisfying and seldom leave, hence the rapid growth. If you check it out you'll also find Mormons are not the whacko cult they get credit for being.

Mitch,

You should check out the Mormon Church: http://www.mormon.org/

Theologically sound, a rock-solid moral anchor, quite conservative on most everything. In addition those who join seem to find something immensely satisfying and seldom leave, hence the rapid growth. If you check it out you'll also find Mormons are not the whacko cult they get credit for being.

Thank God I'd already abandoned the Presbyterian church. But then, I almost wish I'd hung around so I could quit over this contemptible decision.

The denomination you choose is a very personal thing. When I lived in the Cities, I loved Church of the Open Door, (which is Alliance Missionary I believe), for the great teaching of Dave Johnson during sermons, (Growing in Graqce if you've heard him on the radio.) But, It's a huge denomination, so it's hard to connnect there on a personal level.

Although I am currently a memeber of the local Baptist church, (GLBC), I consider myself pretty non-denominational. When it comes to choosing where you should be in my opinion, it's a question you have to ask God. Where do you want me?

Since Christianity's focus is supposed to be Relationship rather than Religion, then the answer to where you should attend needs to come out of that relationship.

DC, it's funny you should mention the difficulty of connecting in a large congregation. My church has grown, in the time I've been there, from a church where everybody knew everybody to one where smaller groups of "connected" (to one another) people (what I used to disdain as "cliques") abound. It's impossible in a large group for everybody to connect over everything. Our church has become what my wife & I studiously avoided; now we look with fresh eyes at the "cliques" and realize that unless you're in one, you're not connected to anybody.

Of course, I could be misusing "clique". We connect with the Parents Of School-aged Kids, the Musicians (I'm in the choir and play guitar and piano), the Sharing Carers (Tasha's a natural-born nurturer), etc. etc. etc. We're accepted by Tasha's mother's cliques, and she by ours. So, high school melodramatics aside, I don't think cliques are always a bad thing.

My point? I have no point. Point and clique. I dunno. Don't be skeered of large congregations, I guess, is it.

Pete (Alois):

ELCA!?

I happen to be rather furious with the ELCA these days, well ever since they signed the agreement on full communion with the Episcopalians.

You can read my tirade here: Ecumenicism. I strongly disagree with the way the ELCA bowed to pressure from the Episcopalians and agreed to participate in the consecration of bishops. The ELCA sold it's soul for what I see as nothing more than financial benefits.

Which begs the question Mitch and everyone else must be asking: Where do traditional Christians turn these days?

The link didn't publish. Here it is: http://www.annsbox.com/logger/archive/archi.cgi?read=506

Ann--

Thanks for the link. Wonderful writing. I will need to check you out more often.

All in all, I am very ticked at most of the mainstream Protestant churches. Mitch has just added more ammunition to the fire (as have you).

I will not worship in a church that goes against my quite deeply held spiritual beliefs. Period.