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Saturday, March 29, 2003
Protesters Paying Piper, Part II - I got an email from a lawyer in California:Love Governor Pawlenty's idea. Probably too much to hope my wonderful Governor (Gray Davis) would propose something like that. In the past I have advocated ignoring protestors as much as possible. Direct traffic around them. Pick them up and move them aside, etc. Anything BUT arresting them. Like I am sure you may have handled your kids' throwing a temper tantrum. They want the reward of the arrest, so deny it to them. But the anti-American protestors now are too extreme, and ignoring them would only escalate to violence. ("Peace" protestors) In general, I agree - as long as they're not blatantly breaking laws against tresspass, disorderly conduct and vandalism. Many of these people think they're above the law in this regard; the "penalties" they currently receive wouldn't make any rational person think differently. Go out to Alliant and trespass on your own, with no political motive? There will be consequences. Do it under the aegis of a politically-correct "cause"? Token plastic handcuffs, ride downtown, a brief spell in the holding tank, mob booking, group hearing, mass release on own recognizance. We effctively subsidize protest with all that police time to no rational purpose.And if Governor Pawlenty needs a lawyer to collect these protestor costs, I'd be glad to relocate to Minnesota. I'd even submit to a 7 hour 45 minute interview. I'll pass it along to the powers that be.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/29/2003 06:46:16 PM
Friday, March 28, 2003
Bleagh - Interview today - seven hours and 45 minutes.
They're being very selective.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/28/2003 09:50:00 PM
Paying the Piper - I'm so deliriously happy with Tim Pawlenty today.
His current proposal would allow local courts to charge court costs to those arrested in "civil disobedience" protests. The Strib described it like this:Following through on a provocative proposal that is garnering him some national media attention, Gov. Tim Pawlenty on Friday issued a letter to Supreme Court Chief Justice Kathleen Blatz, asking that judges seek restitution from protesters who are arrested.
"I suggest judges consider imposing restitution of court costs upon individuals who are arrested for unlawful protests or acts of civil disobedience," Pawlenty said in the letter.
On Thursday, officials with the Pawlenty administration said the governor had grown "frustrated" by war protesters who were getting themselves arrested and, in his opinion, squandering limited law-enforcement resources.
"While people have the right to free speech, they do not have the right to a free arrest," Pawlenty said in Friday's letter. "Protesters have openly admitted they are using the arrest process as a public relations initiative. In those instances, some restitution to the courts for processing costs seems fair and appropriate." Back in the eighties, there was a commune in Luck, Wisconsin comprised of a bunch of, essentially, professional protesters. They freely admitted they exploited both arrest system, and the fact that the arrests they recieved were fully symbolic - token fines, no real jail time, essentially token charges given by a system run by people fundamentally sympathetic to their cause.
I think these people basically pervert the real American tradition of civil disobedience; Martin Luther King faced real consequences in his civil disobedience, which is what made it meaningful.
These people, on the other hand...
Boogeyman alert!By Friday the proposal had become the buzz of local talk radio, with many listeners calling in to praise Pawlenty's proposal.
And with states across the nation trying to deal with anti-war rallies that attract tens of thousands, Pawlenty's proposal also quickly drew the attention of conservative media outlets.
By late Friday afternoon, he had penciled into his schedule an evening spot as a live call-in guest on the Hugh Hewitt Show, a nationally syndicated radio talk show. Media shorthand for "the barbarians are at the gates".
Leave it to the far left, in the form of Ramsey County's Attorney, to stand up for such frivolity:Ramsey County Attorney Susan Gaertner on Friday said she believes the practice actually is uncommon. "Most of the offenders going through the criminal justice system are poor," she said. "So as a practical matter, you don't get costs from them." Antiwar protestors? Poor?
Gaertner knows as well as I do - most Anti-Bush protestors are about as poor as Sarah Jane Olson. Gaertner said she also was concerned about applying recovery of arrest costs to a particular type of offense.
"The question we have to ask is why are we targeting this group of offenders? Is it about keeping up with public safety costs or stifling political expression? So charge every protester who is arrested for illegal disorderly conduct for restitution, regardless of what side of whatever issue they're on. How hard is that?
If people genuinely value civil disobedience, they should support this.
Of course, that would take much of the motivation away for much of the left...
posted by Mitch Berg 3/28/2003 09:49:03 PM
Busier Day - Light blogging until tonight, probably.
I have a job interview. Actually, this will be to interviews what Stalingrad was to gang rumbles. The company wants me to talk with eight people, over the course of six hours. I have to hope that's a good sign.
It's also across the Twin Cities from my home in the St. Paul Midway - and with a purported snowstorm coming in, I want to give myself 2-3 hours to get there. There is nothing worse than trying to get into or out of the southwest corner of the Twin Cities, Eden Prairie and Minnetonka and Edina and Bloomington, during major snow.
Well, short of actual warfare, of course.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/28/2003 06:04:39 AM
Not In Our Schedule - TV discovers that covering protests is ratings suicide, according to this WaPo article: The influential television-news consulting firm Frank N. Magid Associates recently put it in even starker terms: Covering war protests may be harmful to a station's bottom line.
In a survey released last week on the eve of war, the firm found that war protests were the topic that tested lowest among 6,400 viewers across the nation. Magid said only 14 percent of respondents said TV news wasn't paying enough attention to "anti-war demonstrations and peace activities"; just 13 percent thought that in the event of war, the news should pay more attention to dissent. I'm biased - I'd be a fool not to admit it. But I think the networks and the Twin Cities' local stations have spent plenty of time covering the protests. There seems to be some sort of segment on the protesters during every newscast, network and local: "While the fighting seems to have stalled, the protests on the home front are heating up...".
I also think the protests themselves verge on non-newsworthy; it's the same people every time, they do the same things, say the same canned lines. It's as newsworthy as the #7 Bus arriving on time. Magid, whose representatives did not return phone calls, offers no direct advice about what stations should do. However, the research's implied message reinforces antiwar activists' assertion that media outlets have marginalized opposing voices. WHOAH!
There's a jump-cut for you, huh?
I'd say the implied message is "the antiwar activists have marginalized their own message to the point where Americans are phenomenally uninterested in hearing what they have to say".
The activists respond:"The antiwar movement in this country is far bigger than it was during the first few years of the Vietnam War, but you wouldn't know it from the coverage," said Adam Eidinger, a Washington activist. "I think the media has been completely biased. You don't hear dissenting voices; you see people marching in the streets, but you rarely hear what they have to say in the media." Because the marching in the street pretty much IS what they have to say, from what I've seen; the typical anti-Bush protester rarely speaks much beyond the slogans they yell. Sure, there are exceptions.
And as an aside: Mr. Eidinger complains that the media ignore a large percentage of Americans. Mr. Eidinger; welcome to the life of a firearms rights activist!
posted by Mitch Berg 3/28/2003 06:00:47 AM
Thursday, March 27, 2003
Al Quaeda Link? - as mentioned in this space, there seems to be not only a link between Iraq and Al Quaeda - the terror network is apparently leading the fight against the Coalition:At least a dozen members of Osama bin Laden's network are in the town of Az Zubayr where they are coordinating grenade and gun attacks on coalition positions, according to the Iraqi prisoners of war.
It was believed that last night (Thursday) British forces were preparing a military strike on the base where the al-Qaeda unit was understood to be holed up.
A senior British military source inside Iraq said: "The information we have received from PoWs today is that an al-Qaeda cell may be operating in Az Zubayr. There are possibly around a dozen of them and that is obviously a matter of concern to us."
If terrorists are found, it would be the first proof of a direct link between Saddam's regime and Osama bin Laden, the mastermind of the 11 September attacks on New York and Washington.
The connection would give credibility to the argument that Tony Blair used to justify war against Saddam - a "nightmare scenario" in which he might eventually pass weapons of mass destruction to terrorists.
On Wednesday Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, said the coalition had solid evidence that senior al-Qaeda operatives have visited Baghdad in the past.
Rumsfeld said Saddam had an "evolving" relationship with the terror network.
The presence of fanatical al-Qaeda terrorists would go some way to explaining the continued resistance to US and British forces in southern Iraq, an area dominated by Shi'ite Muslims traditionally hostile to Saddam's regime. All together now: We told you so.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/27/2003 09:32:46 PM
View from Warsaw - As has been noted here and elsewhere, Poland's in a strange position - they're our major ally on the continent both on the government and social level. But the majority of Poles oppose the war - even though Polish troops have been in action in Iraq.
Some interesting background in this article in the English-language edition of the Warsaw Voice.
Poland has deployed 200 troops to the scene of the conflict. The Polish contingent includes a 36-man decontamination platoon from the 4th Chemical Regiment in Brodnica, Kujawy-Pomerania province; the special commando unit GROM; and the logistic support ship Rear Admiral Xawery Czernicki, with a crew of 53...
...On March 24 the world saw photos taken by Reuters news-agency showing Polish commandos from the GROM unit after an operation in the port of Umm Qasr. According to unofficial information, GROM has prevented the destruction of oil supply installations in the port. Col. Roman Polko, GROM commander in Iraq, has been consulting with the Polish General Staff regarding each order from U.S. commanding officers, says Polish Defense Minister Jerzy Szmajdziński. Top officials at the Polish Ministry of Defense also disclosed that there were commandos on board the Xawery Czernicki-divers from the Formoza special navy unit.
The disclosed GROM operation has raised disputes over whether Poland is in a state of war with Iraq and whether Polish involvement in the conflict should be interpreted as active participation in the war or merely as earlier announced logistic support for allied forces. In other words, the situation isn't as simplistic as either the anti-Bush or pro-liberation people want to think it is...
posted by Mitch Berg 3/27/2003 08:03:28 AM
Oz and Poland - Jacob Levy on why Australia and Poland have joined us in Iraq, but the Europeans don't:There is, perhaps, something to be said for a modified version of Robert Kagan's "Americans are from Mars, Europeans are from Venus" explanation. This argument begins with the fact that Western Europe, Canada, and New Zealand all inhabit zones of peace. Since they face no credible military threat, or at least no threat that wouldn't first strike a vastly more powerful neighbor (the United States for Canada, Australia for New Zealand) these countries allow their military capabilities to atrophy, which, according to Kagan, encourages a certain willful blindness to threats to the world order. If that's the case, one could easily reverse Kagan's normative thrust, saying that states that do feel compelled to maintain their armed forces become trigger-happy, too ready to go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. In either event, a state's security needs drive its military capabilities, which in turn drive its reactions to the world...
...Notice, too, the similarity to Poland, another medium-sized power in a dangerous neighborhood, and the only other country fighting alongside the United States and Britain. The whole article is great, of course - as usual, read it.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/27/2003 04:09:02 AM
Diplomacy - The left has been portraying Turkey's refusal to allow US troops to pass through to attack Northern Iraq as a failure of US - no, Bush Administration - diplomacy.
It seems there's an ulterior motive, courtesy our old friends, the French, says Mike Ledeen at the NYSun:The Turkish government, which for the first time since the fall of the Ottoman Empire is based on an Islamic party, fully expected that Parliament would approve its proposal that America be given the use of Turkish air bases in the Iraqi war.The government was so confident that the party failed to demand internal discipline, and thus several deputies voted against the resolution.
But that does not account for the failure to approve the government’s proposal.
Primary blame for the defeat of the measure lies with the opposition — the secular, Kemalist parties that have governed the country since Ataturk.
Contrary to expectations, the opposition, responding to orders from party leaders, voted unanimously against the government’s position.
The leaders insisted on a disciplined "no" vote because of pressure — some would call it blackmail — from France and Germany.
The French and German governments informed the Turkish opposition parties that if they voted to help the Coalition war effort, Turkey would be locked out of Europe for a generation. As one Turkish leader put it, "there were no promises, only threats."
One can describe this behavior on the part of our erstwhile Old Europe allies only as a deliberate act of sabotage against America in time of war. It's "Old Europe" fighting for it's piece of the pie. But it seems likely that this move will cost American lives.
Once we've dealt with terrorism, we have another war to fight. A diplomatic one of course - but I think it could eventually rival the Cold War.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/27/2003 02:49:28 AM
Da Cubs? - I'm not from Chicago. I don't play a Chicagoan on TV. But I've been a lifelong Bears fan - and when the topic turns to National League ball, I'm a foursquare Cubs fan, too.
I almost hate to hope; us Cubs fans are almost too comfortable in our little niche; it'd almost be a letdown to jeopardize our endless championship-free record.
But Jayson Stark makes the case that the Cubs could be to '03 what the Angels were in '02:They have to get a boomerang year from Moises Alou (who drove in fewer runs than Melvin Mora). They have to get more plate discipline out of Corey Patterson (142 strikeouts, 19 walks?). With rookies Hee Seop Choi and Bobby Hill on the right side of the infield, Baker has to disprove his rep as a manager who doesn't trust young players.
But they still have Sammy Sosa, the first player in history to have five straight seasons of at least 49 homers and 100 RBI. And most of all, they have the one commodity that puts World Series rings on anybody's fingers: "Dominating starting pitching," said one scout, "when they're healthy."
We've heard too many people rave about their parade of arms -- from Wood, Prior and Clement down through Juan Cruz and Carlos Zambrano -- not to think this team at least has a chance to be something special.
So who cares how many day games they play. Who cares if they haven't won a World Series since the invention of the light bulb. Who cares if they lost 95 last year.
We had to pick somebody as this year's Angels. Well, you want a feel-good story? It doesn't get much more feel-good than the Cubs. If it could happen to the '91 Twins...
Wonder if Stark predicted that one?
(via Jeff Fecke
posted by Mitch Berg 3/27/2003 02:06:09 AM
From Our Corporate Office in An Najaf - StrategyPage is out with couple of excellent Top Ten lists about the war. My favorites:4-The United States armed Saddam. This one grew over time, but when Iraq was on it's weapons spending spree from 1972 (when its oil revenue quadrupled) to 1990, the purchases were quite public and listed over $40 billion worth of arms sales. Russia was the largest supplier, with $25 billion. The US was the smallest, with $200,000. A similar myth, that the U.S. provided Iraq with chemical and biological weapons is equally off base. Iraq requested Anthrax samples from the US government, as do nations the world over, for the purpose of developing animal and human vaccines for local versions of Anthrax. Nerve gas doesn't require technical help, it's a variant of common insecticides. European nations sold Iraq the equipment to make poison gas. ...and this one:8-The U.S. strategy for invading Iraq is a colossal failure. Hard to say, as it's less than a week since the war began and the strategy is decapitation (eliminating Saddam), not fighting thousands of Saddams thugs before getting to the Big Guy himself. Come back in a few weeks and the truth will be revealed. The whole thing, as usual, is worth a read.
Paging Ralph Nader - The nine Marines that were killed last weekend were apparently killed when an Iraqi rocket-propelled grenade hit an AAVP7A1 "Amtrac" Ampibious Armored Personnel Carrier. This vehicle was built to carry Marines ashore and across the beach under cover of the vehicle's armor; anyone who saw Saving Private Ryan can see how dangerous crossing a beach can be.
The AAVP7 is the Marines' only armored personnel carrier (APC) - they don't use the M2 Bradley, which has given Army mechanized infantry such mobility and firepower. But in order to give the First Marine Division a level of mobility comparable to the Third Infantry Division (which has M1 tanks and M2 Bradley Infantry vehicles) the Marines pressed their AAVP7s into service.
And it's all wrong for use as an APC for any reason but amphibious attack; it's armor is much lighter than the Bradley (designed to protect it from small-arms fire and artillery shrapnel, not from heavier fire), while its silhouette is extremely high, making it easier than any other APC to see and hit.
And once it's hit by a modern anti-tank weapon, or even plain old-fashioned artillery or tank rounds, it's all over.
If the reports are true, it's almost good news in a perverse way - if nine Marines were killed in one action while deployed and able to maneuver and take cover and shoot back against the Fedayeen, it'd be more than just casualties, it'd be a sign that the Fedayeen could take it to the Marines with authority. In this case, it was most likely an unlucky ambush by a crafty RPG gunner.
Unfortunately, when our Marines are "winging it" with obsolescent, mis-applied vehicles like the AAVP, things like this are more likely.
Paging Hans Blix - An Iraqi commando battalion apparently managed to destroy a couple of M1 Abrams main battle tanks over the weekend - using French hardware:Some Pentagon officials said Wednesday that this marked the first time Abrams tanks had been destroyed on the battlefield. An Army official disputed that, saying the tanks "were not blown to bits, they were rendered immobile. They're going to be evacuated, and repaired."
On the battlefield, it was not immediately clear what kind of weapon the Iraqis used to knock out the tanks. But a senior defense official said that it was a French-made Coronet antitank missile. Thanks, France.
Both tanks will probably be repaired and returned to action. Both crews escaped, a testament to the Abrams design.
According to the reoprt on the subject, quite a number of Iraqis were killed in the effort.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/27/2003 01:43:16 AM
Wednesday, March 26, 2003
The Column - My original question was: since the media coverage of this whole thing is being manipulated to the administration and military's best effect - both for internal and external consumption - I have to wonder - what's with the Thousand Vehicle Column of Republican Guards purported to be headed on a collision course for the advancing Coalition troops?
It seems that now a better question might be - does the "column" exist? the CNN main page says no - but the article to which it links, as well as most other news websites, are still running the story.
I figure - no way. The Iraqis won't risk that much armor (whatever "1,000 vehicles" means) out in the open against crushing air superiority and - the media never tells you this - easily several times that many Coalition vehicles, including (by my count) nearly 400 Abrams tanks alone.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/26/2003 05:52:36 PM
The Story - Instapundit has this rather illuminating quote from Israeli sources: Most of those interviewed agree that, paradoxically, despite the unprecedented media coverage of the war, including the many correspondents who are embedded in fighting units, nobody knows what is really happening in Iraq. Yossi Peled, former GOC Northern Command, thinks the U.S. has shown great skill in its control of the media. "You have lots of television crews in the field, yet as someone watching TV you have no overall picture."
Military historian Prof. Martin van Creveld goes further: "Everyone is lying about everything all the time, and it is difficult to say what is happening. I've stopped listening. All the pictures shown on TV are color pieces which have no significance."
"There is a lot of disinformation," he concludes. "Every word that is spoken is suspect."
Shahak says that until now the Americans have managed to conceal their true battle plan. "Do you know what the Americans have planned? I don't. They also never said (what they were planning to do). How do you topple a regime in 48 hours? In a week? Seventeen days? If we don't want to make fools of ourselves, we should wait patiently. It would just be arrogant to judge from what we see on TV." So in other words - everything you hear, pro and con, is pretty much suspect at this point.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/26/2003 05:41:40 PM
Airborne - In what Wolf Blitzer called the largest combat airdrop since World War II, a battalion of the 173rd Airborne Brigade (an independent unit based in Foggia, Italy, not actually part of the famous 82nd Airborne Division) apparently has taken an airfield in Northern Iraq, opening the lately-lamented Northern Front against Hussein. The troops jumped in after delays caused by weather and complications with Turkey over using its airspace for attacks against Iraq. Another 1,000 paratroopers are expected to come from 173rd U.S. Airborne Brigade, which is based in Italy. Let me indulge in some facile guessing here: there's been no evidence of the 101st Air Assault division in action yet. This division - completely heliborne, and with attached light armor and attack helicopter units - is designed to fly deep into enemy territory to establish an "airhead" (analogous to "beachhead", not dizzy person) far behind their lines.
Now, remember - on the opening day of the campaign, US and Australian special forces seized a couple of airfields in western Iraq (H2 and H3). These airfields would be very useful as intermediate staging points for the 101st (and a British air assault brigade that is also in country right now).
Well, that's what jumps out at me, anyway...
posted by Mitch Berg 3/26/2003 05:15:47 PM
Speech - I have an unexpected break in the day's schedule, and I'm listening to the President's speech at CENTCOM.He summed up the biggest, best reason for this whole intervention: "We will not wait to meet the challenge with fire fighters and policemen and doctors in our cities. We're meeting the challenge now." Bingo.
I think this part is for military consumption - and of course, the media:And "In the ranks of that regime are men whose idea of coursage is brutalizing prisoners...who use civilians as human shields...who pretend to surrender, then fire on those who show them mercy. This band of war criminals has been put on notice; the day of Iraq's liberation will also be a day of justice." Here's the part I love: "Freedom is God's gift to humanity...we have no ambition of Iraq except the liberation of the people. There is no goal to war except a durable peace." The key words in this address were everywhere: Freedom. Liberation. Liberty. ...the Special forces motto is 'to free the oppressed'. Freedom is God's Gift to Mankind. .
This, people, is perhaps the key meaning of this war; it's an end to the politics of stability practiced by most American presidents since World War II. Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon all erred on the side of stability over freedom; we backed some real sons-of-bitches for reasons no more or less important than pure realpolitik. Carter supported Hussein while Khomeini held our hostages in 1979-'80. Clinton was all about keeping stability at the expense of freedom.
Even Reagan - who was all about freedom and liberty in fighting the Cold War, and is regarded in some parts of eastern Europe as a great liberator - backed the likes of Pik Botha and Ferdinand Marcos (until it was expedient not to do so).
This is not about stability - about settling for a bad status quo out of fear of something worse. This is about freedom.
And freedom works.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/26/2003 10:18:12 AM
Support - Great piece on Fraters Libertas this morning on the DFL Caucus' attempt to play both sides of the fence.
The Fraters note that the MN House DFL caucus is pushing a "Support the Troops" resolution that says all the right things - except, of course, support for the liberation of Iraq, but we digress.
The Fraters pick up the story, with a series of photos of MN House Minority Leader Matt Entenza at last weekend's "anti-war" rally at Macalester:I suppose these images aren't 100% damning, in that Entenza's not pictured lighting up Old Glory with the business end of a spliff or something. However, it is entirely damning by association. As shown below, the anti-war rally at Macalester on Saturday was nothing but an attack on the Bush Administration, the armed forces and the good old US of A.
And who was there in attendance? Smiling, laughing it up, glad-handing like it was the happiest day of his life? None other than Matt Entenza. That is, he was smiling until the paparazzi arrived, at which point he was hustled away by his handlers, as if he had something to be ashamed of.
People holding signs proclaiming Bush is the butcher of Baghdad, Bush is the real terrorist, Bush is a Nazi lunatic. And Matt Entenza is fraternizing and celebrating with them?!
Slandering the Commander-in-Chief? Eroding popular support for the perilous mission assigned to our brave soldiers? Is this what you mean, Matt Entenza by doing "everything possible to support the troops"? Well, Matt, is it!? The DFL leadership's disingenuity is astounding - but not in the "unexpected" sense of that term.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/26/2003 09:57:20 AM
Link? - In Somalia, the local militias - trained by Al Quaeda - hid among civilians, even ginned up civilian mobs as cover to advance on the Rangers.
According to Terry Sanders, an NBC reporter embedded with First Battalion of the Eighth Marine Regiment, the "irregular" Iraqis are...hiding among civilians, driving civilians in front of their advances to shield them from attack.
No known Al Quaeda link, right?
posted by Mitch Berg 3/26/2003 09:11:25 AM
Numbers - I like this one:- Last Saturday's pro-liberation rally: 20,000 attendees. 0 arrests.
- Yesterday's Anti-Bush rally in downtown Minneapolis: a couple hundred attendees. 67 arrests.
Need I say more?
posted by Mitch Berg 3/26/2003 08:30:54 AM
The Usual Suspects - Part II - KARE11's Molly MacMillen made two great observations during her report from the anti-Bush protest in Edina this morning:- "It's a small group of protestors - including some of the same protestors we met yesterday [at the protests downtown]"
- "...there are as many police as protesters here today"
McMillen still looks marvelous.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/26/2003 08:01:12 AM
Leno on Hollywood - "Don't you love this town? You drug an underage girl, you rape her, you flee the country, you get an Oscar. You build a church, and it's 'What are you, nuts?!" -- Jay Leno, last night.
No, I didn't watch - a pal sent it...
posted by Mitch Berg 3/26/2003 07:57:27 AM
Busy! - Starting one little freelance contract gig today, and hopefully finishing another one. Will post later.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/26/2003 07:35:23 AM
The Revolution - Katherine Kersten on something I've been discussing with friends lately: the real reason for the gulf between the US and Europe:At a deeper level, however, the gulf that separates Europeans from Americans is philosophical. Not surprisingly, Europe and America hold fundamentally different views of what it means for a nation to be a liberal democracy.
In a recent issue of the New Republic, political commentator Paul Berman explores these divergent views. Berman points out that, from the beginning, America's experiment in self-government was radical and unique. In an age of monarchies, our founders saw freedom and equality as universal aspirations -- the birthright of all men. Over the years, American presidents from Abraham Lincoln to Ronald Reagan have perpetuated this vision. They have viewed liberal democracy as "a revolutionary project for universal liberation," and America as experimenting with a possible future for the entire world.
Americans find it natural to see Chinese students marching with a model of the Statue of Liberty in Tiananmen Square. We believe that America's power and example have helped to spread democracy throughout the world, and can continue to do so in the future.
Europeans have a very different idea of liberal democracy. Their national self-concepts are not rooted in democracy, nor do they see their nations as prototypes in a universal democratic experiment. Indeed, as the inhabitants of former imperial powers, they find it hard to understand how a democracy can wield power for liberal aims. For many Europeans, power is imperial or nothing -- the power of brutal empires. Here's what I think; many on the left (and a few on the near-right, like George HW Bush) still see the world in the terms that were "frozen" in place at the end of World War II; the "good guys" at that point codified their relationship (the Security Council with its five anachronistic permanent members), and that's the way it's been.
But all relationships change; remember, Japan and Italy were both allies in WWII, bitter enemies a generation later. Of the five permanent, vetoing members of the Security Council, France is now pretty much irrelevant except for its vestigial veto, Russia saved from irrelevance by its nuclear arsenal, and China is still singing the "internationale". Stretched between such poles, its ideology morphed from its postwar mission to a pseudo-EU-ish stew of recursive national interests, nothing much useful happens.
In the meantime, the construct that Andrew Sullivan calls the Anglosphere - the informal group of nations that embrace liberal democracy in the sense that Ms. Kerstin describe - are getting things done. The US, UK and Oz - with the nations that admire them, including most of Eastern Europe - have a clear goal and mission. And it shows.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/26/2003 07:07:22 AM
Tuesday, March 25, 2003
The Usual Suspects - There's another anti-Bush protest going on in Minneapolis today. While KARE11 says the protest is "big", the pictures show a rather small group.
They're blocking entrances to parking ramps and office buildings.
My open note to all of you: keep up the good work. Hassle working people. Make people late for work. Clutter up the sidewalks and intrude on peoples' spaces with your insipid chanting. Parade through the city in all your scraggly-goateed, tie-died, counter-social contempt for those around you; stand and croak your facile slogans in your alpaca sweaters and Volvo skirts and correctly-grayed Lutheran helmet hair. Piss off the people who are already leaning toward supporting this war - give them one more reason to go over the edge, to actually think about what's going on.
You make life so much easier.
Incidentally - Molly McMillen looks fabulous.
Tim Robbins - Peace Activist - WaPo gossip columnist Lloyd Grove on his post-Oscars encounter with "peace" activist Tim Robbins:we said hello to him in a crush of partygoers that included his life partner, Susan Sarandon (both of them had displayed their deep commitment to nonviolence by holding up the two-fingered sign of peace at the Academy Awards). Robbins flashed a smile and jovially shook our hand -- Bob Roberts at a campaign stop. But when we mentioned that we'd had the pleasure of talking recently with 79-year-old Lenora Tomalin -- conservative Republican, George W. Bush supporter and wry observer of her daughter Sarandon -- his expression turned cold.
"Wait. You're the one who wrote about Susan's mother?"
Robbins narrowed his eyes and pursed his lips -- the secretly murderous neighbor in "Arlington Road."
"You wanted to be divisive and you caused trouble in my family," he went on -- the unjustly imprisoned banker in "The Shawshank Redemption." He added that it was especially low to have quoted Tomalin's speculation that he and Sarandon had politically "brainwashed" her grandson Jack Henry.
"At least you got Jeb Bush to call her -- that was great," Robbins spat -- the bitterly cynical studio executive in "The Player." He moved within inches and said into our ear: "If you ever write about my family again, I will [bleeping] find you and I will [bleeping] hurt you."
posted by Mitch Berg 3/25/2003 08:19:12 AM
The War We War, Part II - Ralph Peters in the NYPost about the conduct of the war. The money quote? This bit, about the "New Stalingrad" fervor in the media:Once our forces are ringing Baghdad, Saddam isn't going anywhere. There's no deadline on giving that bad boy the big Indian rub. If necessary - if the regime doesn't implode beforehand - the world is going to witness the first post-modern siege.
Historically, sieges could last over a year, while the population inside the city starved and died of plague. Not our style. We haven't even turned off the lights or shut off the water in Baghdad yet, and we may not do so in the future, except for limited periods and purposes.
Once the last die-hard Saddamites are corralled in Baghdad (and, perhaps, in Saddam's hometown of Tikrit, a city that just brings out the nuclear side of my character), we're going to work 'em like history's biggest cat batting around a blind, three-legged mouse.
And what is Saddam going to do about it? We can even send in food supplies, if the population needs to be fed. Let even our enemies eat as they wait to be killed. Saddam's birthday is coming up in April. I'll pay for the cake and FedEx it myself.
Meanwhile, our national intelligence assets will be focused on one city. Saddam had better renew his subscription to "Bunker Living," because he's not coming out to play stickball. Allied special operations forces - already in Baghdad - will be prowling the hallways and alleys, taking direct action against the regime's remaining supporters, collecting information for precision strikes and working with the growing Iraqi resistance.
When the right opportunities present themselves, our forces will swoop in on pinpoint raids. And no, we're not talking about "Black Hawk Down II." Anyway, people tend to forget that, in Mogadishu, we actually won the tactical battle overwhelmingly - 20 dead Americans, a thousand dead Somali militiamen. And he tosses in this key part, which everyone needs to remember:Why on earth would Gen. Tommy Franks do exactly what Saddam wants, and send our forces charging into the streets of Baghdad?
We're not stupid - or Russian - for God's sake. We're not going to slug down a couple of bottles of vodka apiece and drive straight into Grozniy while Chechens pick off our tanks and troops at their leisure.
We are going to make the rules in Baghdad, not Saddam. That's not only the most important quote of the piece - it's the most important lesson the US military learned in the last thirty years; never let the enemy pick the terms of th battle. You hear the embedded media using this scrap of military jargon, without quite understanding it: "Shaping the Battlefield". It means exactly that - using your mobility to pick the battlefield, and your firepower (especially air and helicopter) to drive the enemy into the position you want.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/25/2003 08:05:26 AM
Rules of War - David Warren has this piece on the progress of the war so far. It's all excellent - but here's the must-read:More, still, could have been achieved, in this very short time, had the Americans and their allies not been playing to the most exacting moral rules ever devised for warfare. They are restricted by, for instance, a general order not to engage any target at all -- including snipers and saboteurs within towns -- unless they have a clear sight of it. They allowed, for instance, a dozen Republican Guard to fire rocket-propelled grenades and automatic weapons at Apache helicopters from the roof of a building in one location south of Baghdad, entirely unmolested, because the helicopter pilots, who could have taken them out in a few quick keystrokes, couldn't be sure of avoiding "collateral damage" to civilians who might be lurking in the building below. Giving the benefit of the doubt to surrendering soldiers cost most of the U.S. Marine casualties so far, in a single incident near Nasiriyah, as a suicide ambush was mounted under cover of white flags.
But these are details, and while the media dwell dotingly upon every individual allied casualty, in furtherance of the defeatist instincts they inherited from the 'sixties generation in Vietnam, the real issue lies in the heart of Baghdad.
There, about 20 obvious and significant targets remain untouched because of "human shields". The most effective of these shields is the Western news reporters, well over 100 of whom are exploited by what remains of Saddam's regime, often with their complicity in buying safety for themselves. These targets include even the Defence Ministry (which is used as a press briefing centre), Iraq TV (still broadcasting Saddam's propaganda stunts and messages, picked up by Al-Jazeera and distributed through the Arab and Muslim world to whip up anti-American sentiment), and the Rashid Hotel (under which the Iraqis have built their most secure bunker. There may be another under the more humble Palestine Hotel in which the lower-paid hacks are sleeping). In the meantime, some bloggers are noting the similarities between Hussein's Saddam Fedayeen and Al Quaeda:"We are not fighting Iraqis. We are fighting Al Qaeda now armed with Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. The continued operation of the Baghdad International Airport and other undisturbed egress has allowed Al Qaeda who want to leave with WMD to do so.
The ones who are left don't intend to leave. They intend to stay, fight and die. And they don't give a rip for Iraqi civilian casualties." I'm inclined to think that:- The Fedayeen aren't necessarily Al Quaeda, but they certainly fight from the same playbook; none of their tactics are proprietary.
- I wouldn't doubt that there are Al Quaeda, Hamas, Jamiyat-e-Islami and many other terrorists among the native Iraqis on the ground in Iraq today.
The investigation should be interesting. I'll be watching for it.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/25/2003 07:46:54 AM
Monday, March 24, 2003
The Coalition Expands - With no fanfare that I"ve heard, the US, UK and Australian Special Forces have been joined...
...by Polish Special Forces.
Oh, stop laughing. The "polish soldier" joke came from a complete misunderstanding of Poland's record in WWII, and from some ethnic bickering (mostly on the part of Germans) against Polish immigrants 100 years ago.
Poland has a long and distinguished military tradition. Even the supposed "charging tanks with lances" trope from WWII was really German propaganda, designed to cover for what was in fact a small German defeat; in fact, two companies of Polish cavalry (under Major Julian Filipowicz, as colorful a character as exists in military history) routed a battalion of German infantry, and were driven off by German armored cars. A few polish dead were posed, with ceremonial lances, next to a passing tank for propaganda purposes - and the legend was born.
Poland's army in exile fought brilliantly in WWII.
Poland is America's staunchest ally on the European continent today. We should be proud they're joining us.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/24/2003 02:17:17 PM
Busy Day - As I mentioned last week; the word on the Twin Cities' employment street has been "once the war starts, assuming it's not a disaster, people will start hiring again".
And as I said on Friday, I got two job-related phone calls - and today, an interview at a job I'd written off, plus a meeting for a little freelance contract that'll at least make my mortgage payment for a couple of months.
Is there a link between the stock market's biggest jump since Reagan's first term and my slightly rosier fortunes this week and the progress we're making in Iraq?
Let's hope some Green Beret made the money contact in Baghdad with the Republican Guard general at the city's back door - then we'll see.
More Moore - Michael Moore is walking talkradio/blogosphere fodder.
What's new? Too much for me to cover on my own.
Fortunately, Moorewatch does it for us. And as an added attraction - Moore himself has apparently taken to corresponding with them, and the Moorewatch folks are mixing it up with him pretty well.
Always good for a laugh.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/24/2003 10:57:14 AM
Liberation - The New York Post's Jonathan Foreman writes from the road to Baghdad, in a piece titled "Liberation".
Lots of fascinating slice of life shots, if the life you're living involves liberating a long-brutalized people. During the run-up to the war, the peace movement never engaged with Iraqi exiles from here in the south or from Kurdistan in the north (where a fierce U.S.-backed uprising is again under way). Nor did it talk with any seriousness or conviction about political conditions in Saddam's Iraq, preferring instead to focus on the supposedly evil motivation of the Bush administration, the criminal "carpet bombing" that would accompany any invasion, or past mistakes in U.S. foreign policy.
The "war for oil" argument has been exploded ad nauseam, and the French and Germans have made it all too clear what a foreign policy based on cynical financial interest really looks like.
There has been no "carpet bombing," and isn't likely to be any. If anything, the U.S. Air Force will be even more discriminate in its choice of targets than it was in Desert Storm - arguably a campaign in which humanitarian considerations played a larger part than in any major war in all of human history.
(As I write on the roof of my stopped APC, I can see an allied aircraft attacking targets in the town of Samaweh - and it certainly doesn't look anything like "carpet bombing.")
Yes, America has indeed made terrible mistakes in the past, including the support provided to vicious Latin American tyrannies like the Argentine junta (though its record of torture and murder is dwarfed by that of the Saddam regime). But the liberation of Iraq is a chance to make belated good on those mistakes and more. Read the whole thing.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/24/2003 10:09:22 AM
Keystone Inspectors - Hans Blix missed this one, according to the Guardian:But the most disturbing find was two Russian-made Harith cruise missiles, each six metres (20ft) long, and nine warheads hidden in two enormous, reinforced-concrete bunkers.
Another missile, as yet unidentified, was found still in its crate.
The scale and possible implications of the weapons find took British forces by surprise and raised fresh questions about the extent of the Iraqi war machine and the ability of weapons inspectors to cope with the task of scouring such a vast country for prohibited ordnance.
The discovery of the missiles - which were stamped with the year 2002 - came as British troops from the Black Watch regiment fought to secure the area around Iraqi's second city, Basra, in preparation for the capture of the city. Just the thing to put nerve gas over an oil terminal?
And, from the same story, in the Weapons of Mass Persuasion department:Lieutenant Angus Watson said soldiers had found the haul when they arrived on Saturday night. "The complex is massive and we were surprised to find a lot of the kit intact, easily enough for a whole brigade," he said.
They also discovered hundreds of leaflets lying on the floor, dropped by coalition planes, urging the defenders to surrender. The leaflets, and evidence of a bombardment from the air or by artillery, appeared to have persuaded the defenders to abandon their posts without a fight. That, or the Black Watch's bagpipes...
(Via Volokh)
posted by Mitch Berg 3/24/2003 10:00:31 AM
Billings, Facts - Laura Billings tries to chide the right about its grasp of the facts on gun control and sex education.
Perhaps the Pioneer Press should find someone who's qualified to lecture about facts, first.One of the constant criticisms lobbed at liberals is that they base their politics on softheaded emotions rather than hard-nosed facts. So judging from two conservative initiatives introduced at the Capitol this week — a concealed carry weapons bill and another stressing abstinence-only sex ed — one has to wonder why Republican legislators have entirely overlooked all the empirical evidence against them. One might wonder that. But one would not get any alternative from Ms. Billings, who cites no empirical evidence whatsoever.The concealed carry weapons bill introduced on Monday by Sen. Pat Pariseau should be familiar to most of us, since it comes up nearly every session. Two years ago, it gained a bit of momentum, thanks in part to former Gov. Jesse Ventura's interest in firearms, the support of groups such as Minnesota Concealed Carry Reform Now, and letters to the editor citing the research of John Lott, author of the book "More Guns, Less Crime.'' Billings is mistaken. The bill has been gaining votes steadily for seven years, and it had very little to do with Ventura.Lott even came to visit the members of MCCRN. You can see his picture on their Web site.
Lott's research suggesting that relaxed gun laws actually reduce crime has been a boon to the National Rifle Association and its efforts to pass "shall-issue" laws around the country, even though his methods have been called into question by criminologists from Georgetown, Emory, Carnegie Mellon and Johns Hopkins universities. What Ms. Billings ignores is that the "questions" from the "Criminologists" have themselves been pretty roundly trashed. Empirically.For instance, critics of his have long wondered where he came across a "national survey" cited in his book claiming that "98 percent of the time people use guns defensively, they merely have to brandish a weapon to break off an attack.'' That's easy. It's a conclusion reached by Gary Kleck in his seminal "Point Blank", the biggest and most thorough survey of firearms use in the United States.When Lott was asked to produce the survey, he said he'd done it himself. When Lott was asked to produce the data, he said he'd lost it in his hard drive. When critics began to question his entire methodology, confusing correlation with causation, a woman named "Mary Rosh" rose to his defense calling him "the best professor I ever had.'' Lott later revealed to the Washington Post, that Rosh was, in fact, his own alternate Internet ego. The left's been crowing about this for the last two months, pretending that this invalidates the entire body of Lott's work.
Unfortunately for Ms. Billings' thesis, nobody's actually managed to attack Mr. Lott's conclusions, or any of the data that actually matter. Since Lott has been largely discredited as a reliable source of information on gun policy, what do other studies say? Well, the FBI says the violent crime rate fell 25 percent between 1992 and 1998, but it dropped even more significantly — by 30 percent — in states with strict gun control laws. According to the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, the violent crime rate fell by only 15 percent in states that relaxed gun control laws before 1992. Which is true - but only because crime was already lower in "Shall Issue" states. Crime didn't have as far to fall.And what about those claims that law-abiding citizens need guns to protect themselves from criminals? An analysis of the Texas Department of Public Safety records by the Violence Policy Center found concealed-carry permit holders were arrested for 3,370 crimes — including murder, rape, sexual assault and weapons-related charges — between January 1996 and April 2000. These "good guys" were arrested at rates 66 percent higher than the general population. But why let facts get in the way of firepower? Indeed, Ms. Billings.
These figures are hogwash. For starters, it counts arrests, not convictions. In cases of armed self-defense, it's usually standard procedure to arrest a shooter, even though he or she is perfectly innocent. The Violence Policy Center's figures don't include the large number of "arrests" that never proceed to an indictment, much less a conviction, because the "crimes" involved are in fact justifiable uses of force.
here's some more attacks on the VPC study
Now, I love a good difference of opinion as much as anyone. Reasonable people can disagree reasonably about things.
The question: Is Laura Billings reasonable?
Exhibit A: The same sort of thinking (or lack thereof) "Or Lack Thereof"?
This was part of the attitude that originally started souring me on liberalism 20 years ago; "we're smart, they're dumb". The notion that anyone who disagrees with you, if you're a liberal like Laura Billings, would seem to be too comical to be worth contempt. ...is at work in the bill that passed the House Education Policy Committee on Tuesday calling for an emphasis in sex education on abstinence until marriage. Proponents of the bill fear it would confuse kids to teach them that abstinence is the preferred way to prevent pregnancy and STDs while also educating them about contraception and the like. (Or as Rep. Mark Olson, R-Big Lake, put it, the latter method may destroy "young ladies' modesty.'')
Too bad these concerned legislators didn't consult the Minnesota Organization on Adolescent Pregnancy, Prevention and Parenting, whose survey in 2000 found that 78 percent of Minnesota parents don't believe a comprehensive approach to sex ed — teaching both abstinence and contraception — sends a mixed message. In fact, 93 percent of them agree it gives kids the information they need to make responsible choices. Reading their survey begs the question: how did these parents get their opinions? What parents were they? Why do they believe what they do? How were they selected? But why bother finding out what parents think? Abstinence-only education is hot these days, and 86 percent of school districts with policies to teach sex ed require abstinence to be promoted. It's so popular, in fact, there are now three federal programs dedicated to funding restrictive abstinence-only education, and no federal programs dedicated to supporting comprehensive sex ed, even though that's the curriculum favored by three-quarters of parents in the U.S. and in Minnesota. Which begs too many questions to even list: Why is sex ed a public school issue? Since it's rightfully the parents' job, why is the public school system endorsing any view of sex ed, much less a "comprehensive" view?Does the abstinence-only approach actually work? After years of study, a 2001 Surgeon General report and the sources from the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy say such programs have not been shown to delay teenage sexual activity. They simply make it more likely that kids will neglect to use condoms or other contraceptives when they become sexually active, putting them at greater risk for STDs, HIV and unplanned pregnancy. Question: Did the Surgeon General's report and the "National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy" control for the messages the teens were presented about sexuality from the media and Hollywood?
Because I'd have to wonder if any form of sex education would have an effect against the glamorization of sex that our kids are exposed to.Given how emotional both of these issues have been in the Legislature in the past, it's unlikely we'll hear much logical discussion on the topics this session.
After all, why let the cold hard facts get in the way of a really hot argument? Ask us when you've presented any "Cold Hard Facts", Ms. Billings. In this column, you've presented references to debunked criminologists, a Violence Policy Center study that's been pretty thoroughly trashed, and a glorified opinion poll.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/24/2003 08:57:08 AM
Sunday, March 23, 2003
The Way We War - Elder at Fraters Libertas asks:Where are the massive B-52 strikes? If our troops are encountering resistance we should not hesitate to use any and all force available to us. To do otherwise and expose our forces to unnecessary danger is not acceptable. Let's assume for a moment that we're hearing a significant part of the truth from CENTCOM's briefings.
From what the UK's general Wall said today, the actual spearhead of the advance is meeting mainly empty positions and abandoned equipment - one of the reasons we're not taking the hordes of prisoners we did in '91 is that the troops, in their own country rather than cut off in Kuwait, are simply deserting rather than surrendering.
Also according to Wall, the troops that ARE resisting are doing it in populated areas, thoroughly intermingled with civilians. I have to wonder if the Saddam Fedayeen didn't watch Blackhawk Down, and note the public relations nightmare that accompanied that brutal streetfight. In any case - loosing the BUFFs against enemy troops holed up among civilians is a war crimes fiasco waiting to happen.
On the other hand, Elder says:We should also distribute the video of our POWs and dead soldiers to all coalition forces as a sobering reminder of the consequences of losing and the intentions of the enemy. I think you can count on two things:- The military will make this an object lesson in navigation and convoy security, among other things, and
- the military's rumor mill, especially among enlisted troops, will get the word around faster than CNN could.
First it was another Brit officer - and now, the networks are predicting we'll be on the outskirts of Baghdad in two days.
Amazing, if true.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/23/2003 09:02:07 PM
Malmédy - In December of 1944, Hitler launched his "last gasp" attack, the Battle of the Bulge. The attack was spearheaded by the SS - the Nazi Party's private army. The point of the spearhead was Kampfgruppe Peiper, a specially-trained brigade of SS stormtroopers led by SS Colonel Joachim Peiper, like many of his men a grizzled veteran of the Russian Front and its horridly brutal combat. The elite of Germany's armored elite, they were a ruthless bunch of soldiers. In "A Time of Trumpets", Charles MacDonald quoted one of Peiper's company commanders: "I am not giving you orders to shoot prisoners of war, but you are all well-trained SS soldiers."
On December 17, 1944, the second day of the Bulge offensive, Peiper's troops had broken through the American front lines, and were overrunning American rear-area units. Near the village of Malmédy, Belgium, they captured a mixed bag of US supply soldiers, truck drivers and others. Their mission - charge through the American rear area, destroying all in their path and raising havoc - didn't include caring for prisoners of war. They rounded the American troops up in an open field and machine-gunned them. At least 80 were confirmed killed, although many Americans managed to escape by running or playing dead as SS troopers wandered among the bodies shooting those showing signs of life.
Word got out, of course. Americans stopped surrendering. They slipped into the woods rather than give up to the SS, and continued the fight. And American units facing Peiper stiffened their resolve, slowing him down at every turn in the dense Ardennes woods, even with a roadblock of blazing fuel (the fuel Peiper had counted on to keep his diesel-starved unit moving), until Peiper's unit ran out of fuel at the high-water mark of the Bulge.
Today's atrocities, apparently commited by Hussein's version of SS, the Saddam Fedayeen, may have the same effect on US and UK resolve. I suspect you'll see a lot of "Remember Nasiriyeh" signs out on the front.
And I have to wonder - maybe that was the Iraqis' whole purpose. Their leadership - whatever there is of it - can't be liking the images that are getting out in the Western media - Iraqi children cadging food off advancing Marines, old men thanking Allah for our arrival...
What better than to make us suspicious of all Iraqis? It's a desperate act - and these are desperate men.
I think these atrocities - expected as they are in this sort of fluid situation - will backfire on the Iraqi military. The challenge (in my utterly unqualified opinion) is to keep it from backfiring even worse on the Iraqi people, with the political costs that'd accompany it.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/23/2003 08:42:56 PM
Comparison - The media took note of the incident at yesterday's pro liberation rally - the one I noted yesterday, where a small number of meatheads in the crowd booed the Moslem woman who broached the subject of US relations with the Arab world. The only speaker who received a hostile reception was N. Ruby Zigrino, a Muslim from Minneapolis. She was initially cheered when she said she supports "ousting a tyrant regime."
But she then read passages from the Qur'an, suggested that a new Marshall Plan will be needed in Iraq, and said administration officials should study foreign-policy failures to avoid repeating them.
Her listeners responded with boos and shouts of "Screw Muslims!" "Screw the Qur'an!" and "Go home!" Yep - I, as a pro-liberation conservative - was ashamed of that part (maybe 10%, at the very most) of the crowd, and condemn their meatheaded mobthink.
But there's something good to chew on here, too: the organizers of the pro-liberation rally had the cojones to book a speaker that did color outside the lines, that did challenge the crowd's groupthink.
The same could not be said of the rally at MacAlester. None of the speakers that I heard urged any though on behalf of the tortured and butchered Iraqi people, Hussein's biggest victims. Had anyone done so, I doubt that they'd have been able to continue. That crowd knew what it wanted to hear, too - and unlike Col. Reppya (organizer of the capitol rally), they gave it to them with no challenges or embellishments.
posted by Mitch Berg 3/23/2003 03:28:15 PM
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