I’ve been off the grid for the past couple of days. I was shocked to hear from friends this morning that Joel Rosenberg has died.
Joel was accomplished at many things; a science fiction writer with dozens of book credits, he was best known to civil liberties advocates in Minnesota as the beating heart and the rapier wit of the Self Defense movement. That’s where I met Joel, of course, close to 20 years ago, one of the small group of activists with a vision that led to the most successful bit of pre-Tea-Party grassroots politics in Minnesota history, the passage of the Minnesota Personal Protection Act. A long-time DFLer, Joel had a mission. From his obit at the Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance:
Rosenberg became interested in guns and self defense more that 20 years ago, after receiving a series of anonymous death threats from a professed neo-Nazi. He applied for and received an unlimited permit to carry a pistol from the Minneapolis Police, a rarity at the time, when citizens had to convince an official of a need for personal protection before being allowed to carry a gun for self defense.
Not content with securing the then-privilege for himself, Rosenberg worked with GOCRA pass the Minnesota Citizens Personal Protection Act of 2003, and was instrumental in its re-passage in 2005 after it was suspended by a court challenge. His online forum, active from 2005 to 2010, was an electronic gathering place for activists, hobbyists, students and others interested in guns in Minnesota.
He was my carry permit instructor; he was also Ed Morrissey’s, and Ed eulogizes him for his response in a moment of need:
When a friend or even an acquaintance was in trouble, he’d drop everything he could to help. I know this personally, and I’ll tell a story here that I’ve refrained from sharing for some time. I have long supported individual rights under the Second Amendment, but had rarely owned or shot a firearm until last summer. I was made aware of a threat against my life by law enforcement that they considered credible (I won’t get more specific than that; the suspect is now serving a prison sentence), and it was made clear to me that I needed to step up my personal security.
The first person I thought to call was Joel. He had made many appearances on our NARN shows over the years, so I knew him a little, but Joel responded like I was a long-lost brother. He immediately trained and certified me for a carry permit, and then helped me select the best pistol for the job. He offered me continuing support while agreeing to keep the matter very, very private. As it turned out, thankfully, the need for the pistol has diminished, but I feel much more secure thanks in large part to Joel. My family and I are safer because of him.
Joel was a mainstay of the local libertarian alt-media; he and his wife Felicia Herman had attended, as I recall, every single MOB party; his various blogs and forums were the electronic gathering halls for the local human rights movement. He was, of course, a mainstay of this blog’s comment section.
Joel died of complications from a heart attack. He leaves behind his two daughters, as well as Felicia; today would have been their 32nd wedding anniversary.
Joel’s long battle with Minneapolis’ soulless autocracy had already exhausted the family and, I can’t help but think, Joel himself. If you can help out, his site is accepting donations.
May I add Joel provided some of the most intelligent and well sourced comments in this forum. No FACT CHECK required.
His contributions here and to society will be missed.
Gentle rest.
Condolences to his family.
Having a little problem with fact checking, Kermit?
Incredibly sad news. Minnesota is a demonstrably better place because of Joel’s efforts.
Sorry, that should have read condolences to family AND FRIENDS.
I’m sure you Mitch and Ed and many others are also grieving his loss.
I will miss him.
No Dog, I have a “little problem” with people who cherry pick sources to back up their predetermined conclusions instead of actually applying critical thinking to issues.
Perhaps you noticed in the above post that Joel was “A long-time DFLer”. He applied critical thinking to the gun control issue, and came to a conclusion that was not spoon-fed to him by leftist hacks. You would do well to learn from his example.
Well said, Mr. D. I concur.
You would do well to learn from his example.
Alas, unlike Joel, DogPrescottPile had been brain dead for much, much longer. No amount of resuscitation will help, so no chance for learning.
Thank you, DogPrescottPile, for interjecting your mindless, self-serving drivel into this sombre thread.
RIP, Joel. Thanks for teaching me inns and outs of the C&C at your class last year. You will be dearly missed. I have big shoes to fill now that I am probably the only jew with a gun left in minnesota.
probably the only jew with a gun left in minnesota
Andrew Rothman at GOCRA (and, IIRC, David Gross, firearms lawyer to the stars) probably count as well.
Wow. So much class. For a minute I thought I was in a YouTube thread.
It was in the GOCRA that I first met Joel, and I learned to respect his drive and independence. He will be sorely missed.
count as well
Three then! It’s a start, but not a minion – yet.
Actually, there are quite a few. One actually owns a Barrett 50BMG – sweet!
Hey, if we can’t talk about guns and C&C and 2nd amendment at Joel’s shiva (which this thread is kind of is for those who cannot attend in person), then orcs won. I say keep this thread at the top for 7 days in Joel’s honor. Or at least a side link.
Never met Joel, but as a permit holder, I’m grateful for his work.
Donated in his honor, and I think another way to honor him would be to take a carry permit class (I’m sure his widow and kids get a royalty, no?), or help someone else to take one. This state is better for his work.
Andrew Rothman sent me this:
I report. You decide.
My first guess would be no. Not Mitch’s Dog Gone. And I base this opinion on long exposure to her writing style. But I admit I have not FACT CHECKED this assertion.
The Dog Gone that posts at mikeb302000 also follows penigma.blogspot.com
Looks like her reaction was to steal content from the Star Trib instead.
One of the contact emails is “penigma2@hotmail.com.
Looks like DG has another forum where nobody will read her babbling crap.
Now that’s not very nice. Without DG’s “babbling crap” we wouldn’t have a metric for intelligent commentary. Tim in St. Paul has proven unreliable in this regard, and Peev is hiding in an undisclosed location. RickDFL is AWOL, and there is a dearth of committed lefties willing to actually engage.
I for one would love to see comments from “Maddog” with a Summit Avenue IP address. But we know that will never happen.
I was very deeply saddened to hear the news, I considered Joel a friend and will miss him and his numerous contributions. My most heart felt condolences to Felicia, his daughters, family, and many friends.
RIP my friend.
Mitch Berg Says:
June 3rd, 2011 at 4:19 pm
Andrew Rothman sent me this:
…Is “Dog Gone” who is your friend the same one who posts here?
http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2011/06/death-of-gun-advocate-joel-rosenberg.html
It’s in amazingly bad taste to steal the WHOLE thing and repost it — but omit the last line about helping the family.
I report. You decide.
Because….. what, Mitch? You’re too lazy to email me and ASK, at either the blog email or my private email which you have, and have used a couple of times in just the last week or two?
Your ‘friend’ Andrew Rothman likes to misuse the word steal, if by stealing you mean include both the site attribution and an active link to the site. Or maybe he is just another sloppy fact checker who likes to cherry pick information to improperly and inaccurately attack people who hold a different view than he does.
There was no author listed, just ‘posted by admin’ so there was no name to attribute authorship.
There are no less than 14 different ways to forward on the obit content in its entirety (reddit, twitter,tumblr,Tipd,StumbleUpon,RSS feed, Posterous, PDF, email, google bookmark, facebook, delicious.com, digg, and ‘uncategorized’ and print) directly over the words “Please spread the word” which would appear reasonably to be not only permission to pass on the post, but an active request to do so.
What a drama queen; what beligerant, ignorant posturing.
Mikeb’s blog, like penigma, has no advertising, and does not post solicitiations; rather for those who wish to pursue such donations further, the link to the original site is provided. It also makes such information more secure by having fewer intermediate steps and/or links for any financial transaction.
After Mr. Rothman left a snarky comment which was not posted, where he again inaccurately and carelessly, perhaps maliciously, made the accusation of theft, the content was deleted, despite the regretable effect that now links to making a contribution to the family of Mr. Rosenberg were also removed, as well as providing a site to readers that could have been of interest.
Andrew Rothman Says:
June 3rd, 2011 at 8:44 pm
“Looks like her reaction was to steal content from the Star Trib instead.”
Again with the false accusations, possibly even defamation and libel, Mr. Rothman. Unless by stealing content, you really mean provide full and correct attribution, a working link to the original publication, and contacting the author/ source/ That is not the usual meaning of the word. (I suggest Mr. Rothman you consult a dictionary for urgent remediation of your vocabulary.)
LearnedFoot Says:
June 4th, 2011 at 8:02 am
One of the contact emails is “penigma2@hotmail.com.
“Looks like DG has another forum where nobody will read her babbling crap.”
Ooooh, I must have struck a nerve.
Speculation Foot? Since clearly you have no idea of what kind of numbers my blogging has, as you don’t track all of the forums in which it appears.
I was surprised after recently being invited to participate in an academic study of bloggers to see what those numbers were, as part of providing visitor and page load numbers for the study criteria. Selection for the study was by ‘snowball sampling’, which operates by following connections – in this case, apparently the number of places where my writing appeared, and was linked or reposted. So, your comment is not only petty, but wrong, Foot.
My writing is nowhere near as successful as Mitch has made SitD. He’s an excellent writer (sloppy researcher, but excellent writer), and he’s been at it a far longer time than I have been writing. Not to mention he adds to his audience through having a radio show. May 30th marked my second year of writing with Pen. Without knowing the specifics of Mitch’s current stats, my best guess is that a month’s readership on Penigma is probably equal to a week here. That represents a significant growth since I started blogging, and I’m happy with that; and that doesn’t include all the other places where I write, or the additional readers through syndication in the U.S. and Canada. So you can kiss my…….foot, Foot.
I agree, RIP Joel. And where is angryclown? I miss angryclown’s commentary
I believe Mr. Rothman owes me a public apology for claiming I ‘stole’ someone else’s intellectual property. I’d like to see it here.
Rothman made false statement that were factually inaccurate and demonstrably untrue, he made them maliciously, and they were potentially damaging to my reputation and to my syndication contract which pays me royalties.
Or so the love of my life (an attorney) informs me.
I’m not saying I’ll sue…….but?
Aw, come on Mitch; my previous comment has been awaiting moderation since 9:09 a.m.
Rothman made false statement that were factually inaccurate and demonstrably untrue
So go ahead. Demonstrate. We are all waiting. As to your reputation, Dog Gone, that has already been firmly established.
And RIP Joel Rosenberg.
Rothman made false statement that were factually inaccurate and demonstrably untrue
Ladies and gentlemen, it just may be that we are witnessing the birth of a new Penigma co-blogger . . .
Rothman claims I was stealing obits.
I have already demonstrated that the first obit was not stolen, but rather provided the means on their site to circulate the content.
I have the email from the STrib proving the second obit was posted with permission, and also not ‘stolen’:
Re: obit for Joel Rosenberg
From: “Walsh, Paul” Add sender to ContactsTo: “‘penigma2@yahoo.com'” Sure.
Sure.
in response to my request:
Subject: obit for Joel Rosenberg
Mr. Walsh,
May I have your permission to reprint the Joel Rosenberg obit you wrote, on a blog that addresses primarily gun issues (http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/) where I am a contributing author?
I have been careful to provide proper attribution to the STrib, to you as the author, and a link to your obit on line, which I hope will encourage people to read the STrib online.
—————
Rothman accused me of stealing, twice.
I did not do so, on either occasion.
Presumably his judgement and ability to read were impaired by his grief.
That was unfortunate once; twice I think merits an apology.
so DG this has to be All About You!
You have to hijack the comment section so people can’t remember and post about Mr Rosenberg but instead must spend their time dealing with your petty complaints. What class! If you had to do a threadjack there were other postings available where you could air your grievances but no, selfish, ignorant, malignant, narcissistic wench that you are you have to make Mr Rosenbergs obit posting on SITD be all about you – good going you’ve really topped yourself this time.
No, Dog, it said “posted by Dog Gone,” which is why I asked Mitch.
No, Dog, no apology will be forthcoming.
Yes, Dog, you stole the content. Willfully, deliberately, and apologetically. That you provided attribution of from where you stole it changes that fact not one iota.
Yes, we provide means of spreading the word. Those means create a link and a short excerpt. It’s called “Fair Use.” What you did — copying 92% of the article — is called “theft.”
Furthermore, when you reposted ALMOST the entire thing, you OMITTED the last two sentences, about helping the family. That was in incredibly poor taste.
That makes you not only a thief, but a poor excuse for a human being, besides.
Oh, and it appears that that blog regularly copies entire news articles word for word, so it wasn’t a mistake, but a policy.
And one last thing? Walsh is not the copyright holder — the Star Trib is. His permission — obtained before or after you posted the article? — is meaningless.
An apology certainly is owed — to GOCRA and to Felicia. By you. But with experience as a teacher, I don’t expect that kind of decency from you.
RIP Joel Rosenberg. You will be missed.
Who is this show about? Yep. It’s all about Dog Gone.
One of the many things that made Joel special is that he keenly understood why words matter.
Joel was one heck of a classy guy. I’d only had a few pleasant interactions with him at the M.O.B. parties and he went out of his way to “friend” me on Facebook.
I haven’t read science fiction for years, and haven’t checked out a gun, but he WILL be missed . . .
Rothman made this about me instead of Joel when he made false accusations. He continues to demonstrate that he can’t read very well, and he – and those of you who continued to comment on it – have made this about me instead of Joel Rosenberg.
That first obit was removed solely because it was NOT our intention to create controversy over the obit. My explanation that it was not to cause more pain to the Rosenberg family was in a private email yesterday afternoon to Mitch. The opposite of ‘hijacking’ anything.
However Mr. Rothman continues, in his ignorance, to accuse me of stealing.
EVERY entry on blogger and on most other blogs, has either at the top or the bottom, the admin who posted it there, either as their work or on behalf of a guest author, where the author is separately indicated. That is true on this blog as well. If you notice here, there is one that lists Mitch and the time and date he first posted this post here.
“Posted by” is not the same as a claim of authorship. Examples, I have posted an article by Matt Phillips on asbestos on penigma at his request, as well as cross-posed, with permission, posts by other authors such as Dr. Michael Kirsch, with his permission. I have even made posts on behalf of my co-blogger, Penigma. Those show as ‘posted by Dog gone’, while clearly showing the author as someone different. ‘Posted by’ is simply NOT the same as authorship, it is an admin feature.
Above the first obit it said very clearly that this was from the site where it was originally posted, and the name of the organization was in a different color type AND bolded, to indicate it was also an active link to that site, ahead of the obit itself. Had there been an author, that would have been included as well, but there was not. If you check further Mr. Rothman, you will find that every single news item or opinion piece that I use, either as an excerpted quote, or in it’s entirety, has such a link.
I am acting properly in what I repost, with commentary, criticism or analysis, so long as I provide proper attribution of the authorship, so long as I do not falsely claim it is my own work, so long as I do not seek to profit from it as if it were my own, and so long as I do not alter it and then present it as the original material.
I am scrupulous in not only providing attribution, but links to the original material so that anyone who has the interest to pursue the topic further, or to fact check my accuracy in providing the info, can do so.
That is all I am required to do for it NOT to be stealing.
As to whether or not the originating author or artist, as an employee of the STrib or any other source has the authority to provide permission on behalf of the STrib as their agent, I suggest you take that up with the STrib and with my attorney.
Mr. Rothman, unless you have credentials as an attorney, I suggest you not try to teach me about fair use, since that is not your area of teaching expertise.
I consulted with my attorney about fair use, and I find his advice far more reliable than yours. He was quite clear that YOUR interpretation was wrong.
So it really is all about you DG ?
Your ego is far more important than Mr Rosenberg’s death and you damned well have to make sure everyone knows it. You are beyond despicable!
You want to stroke your ego in public post under Mitch’s “Its a Fine Day” entry or somewhere else. Mr Rosenbergs death is not the appropriate occasion for you to stamp your little hoof and throw a hissy fit.
Dog, you’re so full of it, it’s coming out your ears. Republishing (without commentary, by the way) in near-entirety is NOT fair use, regardless of profit motive, regardless of attribution, regardless of alteration (though you did alter it, I’ll note, by cutting out the sentence about helping the family).
You stole it. It was not your intellectual property, It was not fair use. And, no, Dog, “I sleep with an attorney” is not conclusive legal proof.
Stop digging, Dog.
tl;dr
Once more I heartily endorse the eloquent words of squire LearnedFoot.
What can I say? The man is a genius.
those of you who continued to comment on it – have made this about me instead of Joel Rosenberg
Bullshit, you narcissistic blowhard.
I am scrupulous
in your selective use of attribution. You really are beyond, Ms. Dog Gone.
Disengage Dog, you’re in way over your head.
“You stole it. It was not your intellectual property, It was not fair use. And, no, Dog, “I sleep with an attorney” is not conclusive legal proof.”
You’re no expert Rothman. My romantic status has nothing to do with anyone’s legal skills. It did have something to do with the availability of those services over the weekend, where I wouldn’t ordinarily bother an attorney with anything other than a dire emergency.
I consulted an attorney, one who is licensed in multiple jurisidictions, with more than just a JD, who also writes, for a legal opinion on what I wrote, and particularly on your claim that I was presenting myself as the author because of the blog software that said ‘posted by’.
I had discussed attribution and fair use for a legal opinion on multiple occasions. I asked specifically about this case over the weekend, on more than one occasion, because if I had been wrong and made a mistake, I would have corrected it, and apologized.
I wasn’t wrong; you Rothman and the other Mitchketeers ARE wrong.
I posted the first obit with condolences to family and friends, and noted that Joel Rosenberg had been influential in MN gun issues. It related to other posts where his name had come up in the context of MN gun legislation and his arrest and legal troubles.
I didn’t claim authorship of something that was not my work, not ever. I did not violate fair use, not in this case, not ever. There is no ‘selective’ attribution, and I would advise you to be careful of claims otherwise about intellectual property.
ITS ALL ABOUT DG
Never mind Mr Rosenberg, DG needs attention!
I’m curious if you all feel that Mitch has incorrectly claimed this as his work when he posted this video without clear attribution.
It doesn’t show an author / video creator, at least not initially. He doesn’t separately post any link (as I did) saying ‘From ___on Youtube’.
http://www.shotinthedark.info/wp/?p=19517
and it clearly says ths, which for Rothman if not the rest of the literate world, means Mitch is claiming to have been the creator of this content:
“This entry was posted by by Mitch Berg on Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 6:55 am and is filed under Faiths And Their Followers.”
OR, posted by is NOT a claim of authorship / creation of content.
Which is it? Either a link is sufficient attribution or it is not.
He used it, in it’s entirety, without addition, analysis, comment. Is that fair use, or is it not?
Conservatives = hypocrites.
Double standard much?
Another thing that made Joel so admirable is that he was able to stay focused on the matter at hand.
One of the hallmarks of a classy person is the ability to smile and walk away from drunks, idiots and trolls without feeling compelled to engage in endless, pointless and inappropriate bickering.
Joel was such a man.
From the looks of this thread, he’ll be sorely missed.
.
Oh, for the love of pete.
Joel was my friend. I’m really in no mood to engage in this discussion.
DG, the blog in question seems to consist entirely of reposted pieces; when I first saw it, I thought it was a content farm – a “blog” that harvests content from others to generate linkbacks. It looks fishy.
As to the film clip – if I’d clipped the entire movie Last Temptation Of Christ, you might have a point – but I ran a brief clip re: Easter, which was clearly not at odds with Mel Gibson’s intent, which linked back to an attributed version of the video. I didn’t add any writing, because none is needed or appropriate. Unless people think I’m Jim Caviezel or Mel Gibson, I think it’s pretty clear that I didn’t originate the clip; it was, to be fair, less clear in the case of your reposted obit.
I’ve been dealing with fair use for a long, long time; reprinting an entire article is just plain not Hoyle. And Andrew is correct; leaving out the part about helping the family was an odd choice.
Did some attorney say it was fair use? Under normal circumstances I’d say “post the attorney’s rationalization”;
But these aren’t normal circumstances.
I’d like to ask everyone to adjourn this argument elsewhere. Thanks.
I’d like to ask everyone to adjourn this argument elsewhere. Thanks.
FINALLY something we can all agree on regarding this thread (that and, of course, expressing our condolences to Joel’s family and friends).
I’d like to ask everyone to adjourn this argument elsewhere.
Agreed. Let’s have some respect, people. And Dog Gone.
Joel certainly was a good guy. Upstanding law-abiding citizen that almost always carried personal protection.
I first met Joel back in the Star Tribune on-line Talk discussion threads.
Rest in Peace, Joel Rosenberg, you will be missed.
It would be nice if we could use this tragic loss to pass the Stand Your Ground bill.