In a debate at “Game Fair” over the weekend – a firearm-friendly venue if there ever was one – Tom Emmer pressed Mark Dayton on his record on gun issues.
And perhaps it’s a good thing that we’ve come to the point that Mark Dayton, as extreme a liberal as exists in Minnesota, someone so far to the left that Margaret Anderson Kelliher felt the need to triangulate to his right during the primary, felt the need to go all tactical on the audience:
“I have two loaded .357 Magnum pistols in my home right now in a lock box,” DFL candidate Mark Dayton told a crowd gathered Saturday at Game Fair, a hunting and fishing expo in Anoka. “I have a 9mm pistol at home. I have a twelve-gauge shotgun at home.”
Battle won, right?
Gary Gross at LFR says “not so fast“; I’ll add emphasis:
Here’s Sen. Dayton’s response:
Mark Dayton: Well, I had a D rating from the NRA in 1982 when I ran for the Senate. I had a two- an A rating in 2000. There were two principal votes you can look em up when I was a Senator. One was banning Cop Killer bullets. And one reason that I have the endorsement of the Minneapolis Police and Peace Officers Association, Representative, is because I respect the law enforcement men and women. I was on a ride-along last week to, as I’ve been several times with a police officer in St. Paul. And those guys wear bulletproof vests every time they go out there. Men and women. And anybody who wants to go out there and see them put their lives on the line to protect us.
What, you want to kill cops?
Except – as Gary found – the “Cop Killer Bullet” bill was anything but (I’ll add emphasis):
SEC. 5. ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.
(a) EXPANSION OF DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.–Section 921(a)(17)(B) of title 18, United States Code, is amended–
(1) in clause (i), by striking “or” at the end;
(2) in clause (ii), by striking the period at the end and inserting a semicolon; and
(3) by adding at the end the following:
“(iii) a projectile that may be used in a handgun and that the Attorney General determines, under section 926(d), to be capable of penetrating body armor; or
“(iv) a projectile for a center-fire rifle, designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability, that the Attorney General determines, under section 926(d), to be more likely to penetrate body armor than standard ammunition of the same caliber.”.
So the “Cop Killer Bullet” bill – written by Ted Kennedy – would have given the Attorney General the power to determine, more or less by fiat, exactly what constituted a “cop-killer” bullet.
Which means they start with the boogeymen rounds – the so-called “Teflon” bullets – and the next day they’ll be noting, correctly, that metal-jacketed hardball rounds penetrate more than plain unjacketed lead or wadcutters.
It also means that the Attorney General – or more likely his employees in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives – could make sweeping rulings about ammunition availability and legality by whim and fiat, creating new classes of criminals at will with a stroke of the pen.
Mark Dayton – for a more bureaucratic world.
I would estimate that at least 90% of union members are sportsmen of the hunters and fishermen variety. I wonder how many of the AFL-CIO robots know that the dims would like nothing better than to take away their guns?
As far as Quick Draw McMark even owning a gun… I would have to see it and the bill of sale. Because he looks deranged, I would question the intelligent of any dealer willing to sell him anything other than a squirt gun.
Oh come now. I can’t imagine a man of Eric Holder’s impeccable character misusing his position to advance a liberal agenda. Can you?
Hey, watch Wisconsin this fall. How do you know that Russ Feingold is in trouble? He has sent a column to the state’s small town dailies talking about how much he loves guns and how he strongly supports 2nd amendment rights. Now, I don’t know much about Russ’ history on the subject, but I just find it hard to believe that a lefty from Madison loves firearms. Perhaps his internal pollster gave him some bad news about rural Wisconsin.
Reminds me of Ann Wynia in 1994, posing with an M1919 on each arm to convince outstaters that she wasn’t some metrocrat gun grabber.
Or Kerry skeet shooting in 2004 (and breaking slews of basic firearm rules in the process).
Chuck;
I think ol’ Russ’s schtick has run out. WI is in trouble and the residents know it. Even though Obumbler stopped by Menominee Falls yesterday to praise himself yet again, it won’t help Feingold and especially won’t help Doyle!
Now, I don’t know much about Russ’ history on the subject, but I just find it hard to believe that a lefty from Madison loves firearms.
Well, as long as you have a solid basis for your statement.
Mitch, I wish I had the article from the Eau Claire paper from when J. Kerry visited there in the fall of 2004. They ripped him apart as Kerry’s speach was halarious. He talked about “crawling on the ground with my shotgun” while deer hunting. He also talked about firing up his uncle’s “trusty John Deere”. The paper noted that western Wisc is mid-sized cities, lots of colleges, and part of Twin Cities suburban sprawl. It is not the Ma and Pa Kettle country that Kerry thought he was visiting.
“that the Attorney General determines…”
Ahhhh yes, that’d been Janet Reno at the time, a real Constitutionalist was she (snark).
“Within days of signing the Brady bill, Clinton ordered a study of a national gun-licensing system. Reno had been advocating such a system for years. She saw it in simple terms: “I think it should at least as hard to get a license to possess a gun as it is to drive an automobile.“ And if safety on the road means drivers must prove proficiency behind the wheel, why shouldn’t gun owners be required to prove that they can safely handle a firearm? she asked. An NRA gun-safety course would be just fine.
The administration also proposed raising the fee for gun dealer’s licenses. [When the NRA protested], Reno responded that owning a gun, like driving a car, is a privilege, not a right. “
I’m wondering when we’ll see an endorsement for Mad Mark from CSM or the Brady Bunch. Think he’ll turn it down?
From what I heard Mad Mark bolted from the interview abruptly. Mad Mark has no cajones; turn up the heat on him and he’ll wilt. He’ll rely on ABM and the like to carry his water, he’s known to be a quitter and doesn’t like a confrontation or fight.
“Even though Obumbler stopped by Menominee Falls yesterday to praise himself yet again, it won’t help Feingold and especially won’t help Doyle!”
I believe Doyle is retiring. GOOD RIDDANCE!!!
It’s not the least bit surprising to think that Mark Dayton might have guns for his own family’s protection, but that he’d vote to deny that right to the rest of us. Liberals have a long history of it.
If I had any pistols at home – and I’m not saying I do – I certainly wouldn’t advertise it. That’s for me to know and my assailant to find out.
,
as long as you have a solid basis for your statement
I think Ds and Fs from the NRA are solid enough.
Libs from Madison are what confirm and reinforce the stereotypes.
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It should be noted, as Boss hinted in the first comment, that the kind of “reasonable firearm regulations” Dayton favors would tend to disarm people with a history of mental health issues….like Mark Dayton.
And the “cop killer” bullets bill? Well, given that the Founders fully intended RKBA to be a bulwark against tyranny, one could gently point out that a vote for that bill would be a vote of confidence for Lieutenant Colonel Francis Smith.
The Interceptor Body Armor and the newer Improved Outer Tactical Vest both have two kinds of inserts: kevlar inserts and ceramic plates. (The IOTV is lighter and designed to be easy to get out of, aside form that it provides identical protection.) The kevlar pads, which are the same type of pads cops wear, are rated to stop standard 9mmx19 pistol rounds, such as a typical army or police officer sidearm fires. The plates are required to stop standard NATO 7.62mm rifle rounds. The Army chose these because they represent two broad classes of threats, sidearms and rifles.
Generally, kevlar pads are not capable of stopping rifle rounds firing regular ball, aka full metal jacket, ammunition. The rounds have more powder behind them and a longer barrel to achieve a much greater velocity than any pistol can. A typical rifle or powerful shotgun with normal ammunition can defeat the body armor that police officers typically wear.
There are two common ways to make a round penetrate armor. One, use a denser material, such as tungsten instead of lead. The downside of a denser metal is more wear on the barrel. That’s why some tungsten rounds were coated in Teflon, the Teflon itself provides *no* armor piercing capability. Two, use a sabot design. This means that instead of a bullet, you use a dart (that’s what “sabot” means), and the idea is that a dense mass at high velocity unloads all its kinetic energy into a small cross section.
These work incredibly well in big guns, virtually any gun designed to defeat armored vehicles uses a high-density sabot round. It rarely, however, makes sense for anti-personnel usage. Against kevlar body armor, a regular pistol round will still incapacitate, and against an unarmored target, an armor-piercing round will tend to over-penetrate, which often inflicts less damage.
If I had any pistols at home – and I’m not saying I do – I certainly wouldn’t advertise it.
For God’s sake, at least don’t advertise that they’re locked up!
Gun geekery ahead:
use a sabot design. This means that instead of a bullet, you use a dart (that’s what “sabot” means), and the idea is that a dense mass at high velocity unloads all its kinetic energy into a small cross section.
Sabot is actually French for “Shoe”. Sabot rounds are based on the idea that it’s easy to push a relatively light object (for its size) to high speed quickly; a relatively small, dense object retains that velocity better. Like the difference between a baseball and a softball; the softball is lighter for its size and easy to whip downrange; the baseball, once up to speed, sails a LONG way.
Sabot rounds include a small “Ballistic Dart” wrapped in a “Sabot”. On firing, the sabot falls away, leaving the dart to fly downrange at amazing speed.
These work incredibly well in big guns, virtually any gun designed to defeat armored vehicles uses a high-density sabot round.
Good example – the gun in the M1 Abrams. The whole round is 120mm, and is quite light for its size; when fired, the sabot drops away to leave a 40mm dart made out of tungsten or depleted uranium (incredibly dense, and also self-sharpening). which sails downrange at – jeez, 4,000fps?
It rarely, however, makes sense for anti-personnel usage. Against kevlar body armor, a regular pistol round will still incapacitate, and against an unarmored target, an armor-piercing round will tend to over-penetrate, which often inflicts less damage.
The Rangers ran into this in Mogadishu; Mark Bowden related the story of Rangers with M16 firing AP rounds intended to pierce body armor. They’d slice through unarmored targets – people – so cleanly that they wouldn’t know they’d been hit unless it hit a vital organ; they had almost no hydrostatic effect at all. Something that’s design to pass efficiently through air and armor will also pass efficiently through tissue.
That’s why the .45ACP is a better fight-stopper than the 9mm Luger, even though they both have nearly identical kinetic energy at 20 feet; the 9 is designed to punch through space (air, tissue) fast and efficiently; the .45 is a big blob of lead that flies adequately through air, and bleeds off ALL its kinetic energy into the first semi-solid thing it hits. A 9mm will go through a person with energy to spare; the .45 will leave ALL that impact force in the target.
Yes, I’m bored today.
It should be noted, as Boss hinted in the first comment, that the kind of “reasonable firearm regulations” Dayton favors would tend to disarm people with a history of mental health issues….like Mark Dayton.
It’s been decades since I bought a firearm in MN, but I distinctly remember that you couldn’t get one if you answered “yes” to a question about being treated for a mental witness. Is that still true today? How did Dead-eye Dayton get his guns? Straw man purchase?
Ugh… I hate it when dumb folk perpetuate an internet myth spurred by ignorant media types who reverse words when it goes to print.
The original “cop killer” bullet had NOTHING to do with killing cops.
WARNING: Guns & Ammo geek info ahead
The whole story of the name “cop killer ammo” is actually attributed to a copy editor who thought the words were reversed when a reporter was on hand when police were viewing the test results of the (then) new Winchester Black Talon.
Tests were on display and a physician had made the comment that the Talon line of ammunition from Winchester was going to give cops killer ballistics. Well, some dumb bunny switched the words around and it was termed the “copy killer ballistics”.
Around that same time, the myth that the coating on the bullet was teflon became legend. Its not teflon, or “moly” lube. Its their own formula called lubalox and has not a trace of teflon in it.
Another sore spot for Winchester was that the name “black talon” was associated with “black felon” in some circles (likely racist journalist who can’t accurately quote a ballistic expert) and Winchester was guilted into only selling this ammo to LEO’s in their “Ranger” line of ammo.
But, that never stopped a crappy politician from writing a law based on a complete lie….
What is ironic is that the “black talon” bullet is no longer black coated and the engineer who developed it left Winchester/Olin to go onto work at Remington and created the (arguably) better “Golden Saber” bullet.
230gr +P Remington Golden Saber (bonded) is what I carry in my magazines.
EDIT: Sorry, that should read in the quotes half way down, “cop killer bullets”. My spell checker auto-corrected it.
For the record, no police or LEO I know of in the Metro wears anything greater than Level IIIa body armor. (which I think is the insurance mandated requirement these days, if I remember it correctly)
I think Ds and Fs from the NRA are solid enough.
Well, that’s a better argument than “I don’t know much about Russ’ history on the subject,” that’s for sure.
Well, yeah, Moe; NRA is pretty solid in their ratings, although they do too often give a break to incumbents.
“It’s been decades since I bought a firearm in MN, but I distinctly remember that you couldn’t get one if you answered “yes” to a question about being treated for a mental witness. Is that still true today? How did Dead-eye Dayton get his guns? Straw man purchase?”
Hey, Dayton is a weasel but let’s not get carried away here. I don’t know his medical history well enough to know: does he fit this definition:
Minn. Stat. 624.713 (3) a person who is or has ever been committed in Minnesota or elsewhere by a judicial determination that the person is mentally ill, developmentally disabled, or mentally ill and dangerous to the public, as defined in section 253B.02, to a treatment facility, or who has ever been found incompetent to stand trial or not guilty by reason of mental illness . . . .
18 USC 922 (g) It shall be unlawful for any person . . . who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution . . . to possess . . . any firearm or ammunition . . . .
“Adjudicated” means by a judge, after hearing the evidence. It doesn’t mean seeing a shrink or going to rehab.
If Dayton hasn’t been adjudicated as mentally ill, he’s not a prohibited person for mental health reasons under Minnesota or federal law and we shouldn’t bag on him for that. At least, that’s the way I read it. Anybody have evidence to the contrary?
.
Maybe Dayton passes on the letter of the law, Nate, but isn’t anyone in the media putting his use of anti-depressants & alcohol together with his bragging about the guns in his house?
I’m not sure why, but I think the analogy would be Emmer saying that he’ll never get another DUI because he’s learned how to game the breathalyzer.
“Sabot is actually French for “Shoe”.”
Oops, yeah, I was thinking of one part while writing about another… Yeah, the Abrams is pretty awesome, I’ve heard them on the range, they sound like thunder, only louder.
“That’s why the .45ACP is a better fight-stopper than the 9mm Luger”
Though if you’re talking about your personal sidearm, you’d be carrying hollow points, which seriously narrows the difference.
And, also, the best fight-stopper is a well placed shot. When you’re getting ready to go to the range, your money is buying 4 times as many 9mm rounds as 45.
And, also, the best fight-stopper is a well placed shot
Well, yeah, but I was talking straight up comparisons of individual hardball rounds.
I wonder how many nights Mark has spent alone in his office, a half-empty bottle of Maker’s Mark in front of him, the barrel of one of his many handguns against his temple, half-trying to muster the courage to pull the trigger, half-praying for the phone to ring.
Just wondering, is all.
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