I never cared much for Imus. I can’t say that I’ve listened to him more than a half a dozen times, ever; he never really took off in the Twin Cities (Pointless disclosure: Salem Radio engaged Imus for the morning shift at the re-tooled AM1570 within the past couple of weeks). I’ve always found his phlegmy, gargly-sounding voice unlistenable; as someone who grew up in the business, I’ve always found the old-school, big-name “shock jocks” (from back when that term meant something) to be deeply distasteful people; and as he developed as a reliable liberal outlet in a medium run by conservatives, I found him (counterintuitively) less and less interesting.
So he’s gone. Whoop di doo.
Of course, the scandal that led to his demise (?) teaches all the wrong lessons.
Jason Whitlock writing in the Kansas City Star sums up the real importance of Imus’ demise, and the way it went down. You need to read the whole thing – but I’m going to excerpt big chunks of it anyway.
Thank you, Don Imus. You’ve given us (black people) an excuse to avoid our real problem.
You’ve given Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson another opportunity to pretend that the old fight, which is now the safe and lucrative fight, is still the most important fight in our push for true economic and social equality.
Exactly.
William Raspberry wrote an excellent column about 15 years ago, officially consigning the petty racism of name-calling to the “Pathetic, Ignore” bin (and I’d love to find that article online somewhere). Long story short: anyone who thinks that ignorant morons calling black people naughty names is teh biggest problem facing blacks in America today – or even an important one – is deluded.
Thank you, Don Imus. You extended Black History Month to April, and we can once again wallow in victimhood, protest like it’s 1965 and delude ourselves into believing that fixing your hatred is more necessary than eradicating our self-hatred.
The bigots win again.
The only question I have; which bigots?
Jackson and Sharpton, who believe Blacks in America deserve no better from their “leadership” to wallow in the sort of petty victimhood afforded by a statement as dumb (dumb!) as Imus’?
Or the casual, de facto bigots who control so much of African-American culture in America:
While we’re fixated on a bad joke cracked by an irrelevant, bad shock jock, I’m sure at least one of the marvelous young women on the Rutgers basketball team is somewhere snapping her fingers to the beat of 50 Cent’s or Snoop Dogg’s or Young Jeezy’s latest ode glorifying nappy-headed pimps and hos.
If the misogyny and self-loathing in hip-hop were to be directed self-directed at any other ethnic group, psychologists would queue up around the figurative block to try to find the cause of such a cultural dissociation.
I ain’t saying Jesse, Al and Vivian are gold-diggas, but they don’t have the heart to mount a legitimate campaign against the real black-folk killas.
It is us. At this time, we are our own worst enemies. We have allowed our youths to buy into a culture (hip hop) that has been perverted, corrupted and overtaken by prison culture. The music, attitude and behavior expressed in this culture is anti-black, anti-education, demeaning, self-destructive, pro-drug dealing and violent.
Rather than confront this heinous enemy from within, we sit back and wait for someone like Imus to have a slip of the tongue and make the mistake of repeating the things we say about ourselves.
The thesis – that mainstream black culture has become Black America’s worst enemy?
It’s embarrassing. Dave Chappelle was offered $50 million to make racially insensitive jokes about black and white people on TV. He was hailed as a genius. Black comedians routinely crack jokes about white and black people, and we all laugh out loud.
There is nothing quite as depressing as watching the various “Apollo” comedy specials and tours. And while Chapelle is funny (in the same way that “Borat” was funny – in a way that I kind of didn’t like myself for finding funny, in many ways), you watch it knowing that behind all comedy is some form of pain or another – and the sense that the “pain” behind the likes of Chapelle and the less-tony black comic community is self-hatred.
Somehow, we’re supposed to believe that the comments of a man with virtually no connection to the sports world ruined Rutgers’ wonderful season. Had a broadcaster with credibility and a platform in the sports world uttered the words Imus did, I could understand a level of outrage.
But an hourlong press conference over a man who has already apologized, already been suspended and is already insignificant is just plain intellectually dishonest. This is opportunism. This is a distraction.
Worse than a distraction; it’s going to give some of the lesser lights of the “civil rights movement” a sense they’ve “won” something, while the real problems just grind on and on.
And those real problems, more and more, drive Mercedes and wear lots o’ bling:
I don’t listen or watch Imus’ show regularly. Has he at any point glorified selling crack cocaine to black women? Has he celebrated black men shooting each other randomly? Has he suggested in any way that it’s cool to be a baby-daddy rather than a husband and a parent? Does he tell his listeners that they’re suckers for pursuing education and that they’re selling out their race if they do?
…No. We all know where the real battleground is. We know that the gangsta rappers and their followers in the athletic world have far bigger platforms to negatively define us than some old white man with a bad radio show. There’s no money and lots of danger in that battle, so Jesse and Al are going to sit it out.
Read the whole thing.
And ask yourself; with Imus gone but Fitty Cent and Snoop Dogg still acting out a stereotype more corrosive than Stepin’ Fetchit (because nobody seriously aspired to be Mr. Fetchit, while a generation of kids now use the word “pimp” as an adjective of approval), what’s really changed?
UPDATE: Flash at Centrisity adds 2,000-odd words to the subject.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Imus is in trouble for saying certain words. The problem is not the words he used, but the people he used those words to inaccurately describe. Imus called a group of real young women whores, when they were far from it. Snoop may use naughty words, but I am unaware of Snoop using similar words to inaccurately describe an actual woman.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Imus is in trouble for saying certain words.< The problem is not the words he used, but the people he used those words to inaccurately describe.
No, there’s no mistaken impression here at all (yet another of your constant factual errors). Of course it’s about who he called a “nappy-headed ho”. If he’d called Ann Coulter a “nappy headed ho”, there’d have been no fuss whatsoever.
Imus called a group of real young women whores, when they were far from it. Snoop may use naughty words, but I am unaware of Snoop using similar words to inaccurately describe an actual woman.
Well, that’s an assertion that depends on your awareness. And Whitlock’s assertion is that the pop-culture denigration of women has filtered into the wider culture.
It’d be more-than-usually obtuse of you to suggest that’s not the case.
I am unaware of Snoop using similar words to inaccurately describe an actual woman.
I had to hit on this again.
So – “climates” of hate, discrimination and misogyny don’t matter?
Someone tell Hillary!
Well, Imus is a half-dead (or maybe all-dead and embalmed already) old coot…who would take him seriously or give a crap about what he says? I read somewhere in the last day or two that those young ladies on the team should have been proud of who they are, their accomplishments as b-ball players and students and NOT LET THEMSELVES BE DEFINED by what an old ass had to say. Jeez-sticks and stones! And for one to say she’s “scarred for life”? I hope that’s the worst that happens to her in life. Criminy, get a grip.
And I think it was Michelle Malkin that said she’d like to know what may be playing on some of the gal’s iPods….
I’m glad Imus is out…our culture is coarsened by the likes of him….and the gangsta-rappers as well, so hopefully they’re next, but I won’t hold my breath.
Here is the quote I tried to paraphrase above (it’s from a poster on Powerline-hope it’s OK to lift it-it’s just too good to let go by):
They should have said:
““We were in the NCAA championship game. We are superior athletes. We know jerk comments when we see/hear them. We’re cool, proud, talented, smart, etc. Imus, you messed up, but, frankly, Al, you messed up more. We’re tired of the race card – we want to be accepted for what we are: talented, bright women.””
This should be good for at least a half hour tomorrow. Unless you’re doing something interesting, that is.
Nice, even-handed response, Colleen. Let’s ban Imus *and* gangsta rappers. Just curious: do you have any ideas that aren’t borderline fascist?
Unless you’re doing something interesting, that is.
To me, Whitlock’s points are the only interesting part.
A radio guy getting whacked (even for saying something stupid)? Not really news.
do you have any ideas that aren’t borderline fascist?
I don’t think Colleen called for the government to do anything, Vobo.
That was Sharpton.
Y’know – your guy.
“Best Damned Sports Show” opened with a rather spirited debate using the Imus -vs- Rapper analogy. I think they go hand in hand. In fact, what very may have prompted the despicable and inappropriate comment by Imus was his sheltered impression as defined by HipHop and Rap. His very phraseology sounds like it came out of a 50 Cent lyric.
It would have been a key turning point in race relations and the future of our social climate if those ladies would have used the Quote Coleen mentions. I still hop I am alive the day something like that happens.
Remember the fuss that was created when I believe it was Bill Cosby who called the AfAm culture out and said something like ‘we need to clean our own house first’ . . .
Flash
I still hop I am alive the day something like that happens.
Well, that William Raspberry column I cited was very close to it. Granted, he was a pundit rather than an athlete, politician, celeb or businessperson, but it was the right idea.
believe it was Bill Cosby who called the AfAm culture out and said something like ‘we need to clean our own house first’ . . .
Absolutely. There is a big chunk of the AfroAmerican “leadership” that has a vested interest in keeping the debate stuck in the early sixties.
So when you say Sharpton is “my guy”, are you simply lying? Cause Angryclown criticized Sharpton in this forum just the other day. And Angryclown is of the opinion that Sharpton, by ginning up the infamous Tawana Brawley hoax and whipping up racial divisions in 1980s New York, has long ago disqualified himself from a role in shaping public discourse.
You are a fine fellow Mitch, but you have an almost sociopathic disregard for truth.
So when you say Sharpton is “my guy”, are you simply lying?
No, simply painting with a hyperbolically, tongue-firmly-in-cheek broad brush.
I mean, everyone knows that every Democrat from New York is exactly the same, right? Just like everyone in flyover country is a NASCAR-watching, Walmart-shopping cousin-fscker?
I mean, come on.
Cause Angryclown criticized Sharpton in this forum just the other day. And Angryclown is of the opinion that Sharpton, by ginning up the infamous Tawana Brawley hoax and whipping up racial divisions in 1980s New York, has long ago disqualified himself from a role in shaping public discourse.
And Berg is aware of Angryclown’s history on this, but sees that as no reason not to nudge the clown in the ribs.
You are a fine fellow Mitch, but you have an almost sociopathic disregard for truth.
Mommy?
Flash:
“His very phraseology sounds like it came out of a 50 Cent lyric.”
But that misses the point. 50 Cent didn’t call the woman on the Rutgers B-ball team “ho’s”. As best I can tell – and I am no expert – the women 50 cent calls “ho’s” are fictional. For example, you would feel a lot different about 50 cent if his next song was called “Mrs. Flash is a ho”. That is a whole new level and different kind of offense.
Mitch:
“So – “climates” of hate, discrimination and misogyny don’t matter”
They matter and the role of gangsta rap and it’s relation to sexism is controversial, complicated, and irrelevant to Imus. Imus is not in trouble for contributing to a culture, he is in trouble for a specific sexist and elitist remark improperly directed at actual women. By trying to wrap Imus up in a vague cultural debate, you ignore the specific wrong he committed and the wrongs of the media elites who routinely tolerated such behavior.
They matter and the role of gangsta rap and it’s relation to sexism is controversial, complicated, and irrelevant to Imus.
Right, sort of – although Whitlock’s article actually gets the relationship right (rather than glossing it over, as you do). Have you read it?
you ignore the specific wrong he committed
I ignore nothing. He’s an idiot! But as usual, Rick, you take a pointillistic, picayune tangent and try to jam it down my throat.
At any rate, you’re the one who’s doing the ignoring. By calling gangsta rap’s relationship to the problems it helps exacerbate “controversial and complicated” and saying that’s that, nothing to see here, move along, you are at best saying “calling misogyny and hate for what it is is tooooo complicated for me”, and at worst presuming that the controversy and complexity itself forgives hip-hop culture for creating an environment where saying, believeing and doing loathsome and reprehensible things is OK – which is at best patronizing and at worst racist.
Huge swathes of hip-hop culture – black and white, by the way – deserve the same scrutiny that Imus has gotten.
Hmmm…Imus getting “fired” is “banning”? Gangsta rap losing customers for their wallowing filth is “banning”? It’s called “the marketplace”….apparently those people who paid the bills for Imus’s show decided not to pay anymore…and maybe if some people start thinking about the “lyrics” rappers use they will keep their money in their pocket as well…where the hell does “ban” come into this?
Oh, hey! At least I’ve apparently stepped up to “borderline fascist”! I think before this I was just a plain old full-on fascist!
It’s the marketplace at work when people stop tuning in or don’t buy CDs. That’s perfectly appropriate. What isn’t is when big companies pull the plug on somebody cause some pressure group doesn’t like what they have to say. It’s this latter bit that you’re cheering on, Colleen.
You don’t go so far as calling for bonfires of books and records – this time – so I used the qualifier “borderline.” I happen to think you are an out-and-out fascist in your heart, but chose today to give you the benefit of the doubt. I have a very bad feeling you’ll make me regret that decision.
What isn’t is when big companies pull the plug on somebody cause some pressure group doesn’t like what they have to say.
Like CBS and Imus?
(Not to defend Imus; this last week’s shenanigans aside, he’s always sucked)
I couldn’t resist this, Rick:
50 Cent didn’t call the woman on the Rutgers B-ball team “ho’s”. As best I can tell – and I am no expert – the women 50 cent calls “ho’s” are fictional.
So if someone advocates raping fictional women, it’s morally less loathsome?
If someone calls for discriminating against fictional people of color, it’s not as bad?
If morally disgusting statements, beliefs and ideals are hypothetical, it’s not as bad?
Gotta tell you, Rick – while I might bobble the occasional insignificant factoid, you have a knack for ignoring overarching, black and white moral standards. And if you can’t run with the big dogs, go lay down on the porch, I always say!
“”But that misses the point. 50 Cent didn’t call the woman on the Rutgers B-ball team “ho’s”. As best I can tell – and I am no expert – the women 50 cent calls “ho’s” are fictional.””
I’m not so sure. That is the some premise of the debate on Best Damn Sports show in trying to show the ‘difference’ between the two. I understand the difference clearly, I just am not sure I can give it a complete pass. It is the climate and culture the Rap community presents, that maybe made Imus ‘think’ he would get a pass on his comments. As it turns out, he didn’t think it through at all.
So yes, when you start focusing in on individuals, it may cross a more treacherous line, I just feel that the Rapsters cross a very similar line as well by creating a climate that may lead people to think it is ‘hip’ to degrade.
Let’s use another example. I think the ‘N’ words should be rooted out of the language. Unfortunately, it is all over Hip Hop music and used as common dialogue amongst the culture. But if someone outside the culture uses the word in the exact same context, than all Hell breaks loose. (As a middle school educator for 15 years, I have seen first hand experience of this)
Cosby would know where I am coming from. I would be curious to hear if he has been tapped for comment on this recent furor (here is a CNN link to Cosby’s 2004 situation: http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/TV/11/11/cosby/index.html)
Flash
RickDFL: “As best I can tell – and I am no expert – the women 50 cent calls “ho’s” are fictional.”
Wow. Just. . . wow.
Under that umbrella of thinking, I can start yelling out “N*ggers!” because I’m not, you know, addressing “specific” black people. They’re FICTIONAL n*ggers, you understand, so it’s perfectly okay.
Or, what Flash said.
Man, I’ve been off my game lately.
I’ve been off my game lately.
Nah, you just show that common sense can cross party lines.
Skipping Rick and Al Sharpton, natch.
Flash – all I can say is WOW! You summed up my feelings on this incident so succinctly! Well done.
LL
Is this black columnist a fascist too?
http://www.newsday.com/ny-sppow125168074apr12,0,4959558.column?coll=ny-homepage-mezz
Mitch:
“So if someone advocates raping fictional women, it’s morally less loathsome”. Well like most things its complicated.
1. Harming a fictional person (say in a video game) while often wrong, is clearly less wrong than harming an actual person. I would think your son’s run-ins with fictional violence in a sniper video game would make you of all people aware of the difference.
2. Advocating raping a fictional woman for a reason that would apply equally to actual women seems just as loathsome as advocating the rape of an actual woman for the same reason. For example, saying a fictional character deserved to be raped for wearing red lipstick, is just as bad as saying Michelle Bachmann desereves to be raped for wearing red lipstick. The are both equally wrong because both imply that all woman wearing red lipstick deserved to be raped.
Yossarian:
“they’re FICTIONAL n*ggers, you understand, so it’s perfectly okay”
It is not ‘perfectly okay’ but it causes less harm than saying it to an actual person. If you feel an uncontrollable urge to use that word, I would recommend confining yourself to empty rooms or fictional settings.
it causes less harm
OK, if the standard you really want is “less harm”, let’s work with that.
As Whitlock notes in his article – correctly – nobody was harmed by Imus’ deeply stupid remarks. No blood was spilled. In this case, while the victims were real, the harm was indeed fictional.
The hip-hop culture, glorifies “fictional” violence, misogyny and crime – which inspires ample real-life behavior. To put it in Hillaryspeak, it “creates a climate” of acceptance for violence, misogyny, child abandonment, and many of the other ills that Whitlock rightly notes are the real plagues facing AfroAmerican society.
In other words, the ostensible victims might be fictional (initially), but the harm the glorification of that culture causes is in fact real.
Considering the issue holistically, which – honestly – is worse?
Of course it’s a rhetorical question.
Mitch:
“At any rate, you’re the one who’s doing the ignoring”
Flash:
“I understand the difference clearly, I just am not sure I can give it a complete pass.”
Anytime, other than the context of what Imus said about the Rutgers b-ball team, folks can have a debate about sexism in American culture. But in the context of what Imus did, trying to talk about the larger problem is an evasion and a way of excusing Imus. Whitlock’s article almost seems to suggest that the Rutgers woman had it coming because too many blacks listen to rap.
Its like your in a bar and someone calls your friend a ‘whore’. You two may want to stand around, stroke your chin, and debate the use of sexist language. I think you ought to get your friends back immediately and insist that the yahoo be bounced from the bar.
Its like your in a bar and someone calls your friend a ‘whore’. You two may want to stand around, stroke your chin, and debate
Or, more accurately, it’s like someone in a bar talks about r@ping and killing a wh0re, and an addled moron in his audience goes out and does just that.
Mtich:
“nobody was harmed by Imus’ deeply stupid remarks”
The Rutgers B-ball team was very much harmed. Come on – I don’t know what sort of circles you run in, but if you call one of my friends a ‘ho’, we have a problem.
Seriously call one of your friends wife a whore to her face in front of him, then try your “No blood was spilled. In this case, . . . the harm was indeed fictional” excuse.
“”The Rutgers B-ball team was very much harmed.””
To me, the actual ‘harm’ you refer to didn’t happen until the publicity hounds of the Sharpton/Jackson set decided to force it into Mainstream. Frankly, I didn’t even know what happened until a few days afterwards as the snowball was rolling down the hill and every media outlet in the country was hopping on the bandwagon. In fact I never heard what Imus said until CNN/ESPN/CBS/ABC/NBC started playing the audio ad nauseam. What Imus said was reprehensible, how the MSM dealt with it isn’t that far behind!
Flash
What Flash said. Plus…:
The Rutgers B-ball team was very much harmed.
Rick, do you just love being contrary? Because your level of obtusion challenges a couple of laws of physics.
You can’t honestly compare hurt feelings arising from a reprehensible remark with:
Can you?
Because if you do, it’d seem that Raspberry’s and Whitcomb’s remarks are aimed directly at you.
Answer this question, and please don’t change the subject (I mean it); how do you even put them in the same paragraph?
The Rutgers B-ball team was very much harmed.
Jesus H. Christmas.
Have you ever even HEARD the smack basketball players (men and women) say to one another? Hell, even at the high school level they trade verbal barbs that can make a Teamster wince. If a player called another player a “nappy headed ho,” the “insulter” would be laughed off court for her pathetic insulting skills.
Flash is right, again (must be Friday the 13th), any “harm” the Rutgers B-ball team may have felt was only after the dynamic duo of Sharpton/Jackson worked the media into a fabricated lather of outrage.
If you can’t shake off being called a “nappy headed ho,” life is going to have its way with you until you’re a blubbering mass in a psyche ward.
By the way, Rick – just to head off the diversion I can already sense you working up – saying that calling someone a “nappy headed ho” (or any other verbal insult) isn’t as bad a glorifying a culture of misogyny and crime does not excuse the insult.
It’s merely realistic about the relative gravity of the various acts.
Mitch:
It is you and Whitlock who want to compare them and put them in the same paragraph. I want to keep them separate.
People of all walks of like love violent and sexually charged entertainment. Our society is full of violence and sexism. Those two probably connected in some very complicated and hard to trace way. That is just life. You play a smoking hot version of ‘Hey, Joe’, some guy in the audience goes out and kills his old lady. What are you going to do, give up Hendrix? It is a serious and interesting problem, but essentially long term, vague, and sort of academic.
In contrast, what Imus did directly caused immediate and serious harm to real specific identifiable people. It is wrong to say that anything else is the real issue.
Put it this way, you are in a bar, the jukebox is playing “Girls, Girls, Girls” by Motley Crue, some guy walks up and tells your girl she is a “whore”, what do you do:
1. Start a discussion about how pop culture denigrates women.
2. Ask the owner to put “Tiny Bubbles” on the juke.
3. Toss the dude out on his rear.
We can all debate 1 and 2 some other time, but 3 is the issue at hand.
Yossarian:
How many of the folks you play ball with have a radio show that generates 50 million a year? How many have a TV show on a national cable network? How many host our nations elite political and media insiders every day?
The size of the audience amplifies the insult.
“The size of the audience amplifies the insult.”
If you were any more obtuse, you’d be a triangle.
Who was doing the amplifying here? Sharpton and Jackson. Until they got their undies in a bunch, how much “harm” were the Rutgers women feeling?
Oh, come on. Clearly Rick is correct. The basketball team suffered incalculable harm. I am surprised they are able to come out of therapy to give interviews. Calling them nappy headed ho’s is just like…..like…….oh, calling Bush Hitler.
Give it a rest. It was a stupid remark. I can’t stand his show, but the marketplace decided he was a success, and if the advertisers who paid for the show bailed, then the show dies. Find me one person in the world who heard that comment and thought “huh. I just heard that the Rutgers basketball team has nappy hair AND is involved in the sex trade. I had no idea they were whores. I wonder if the flesh trade stops at just that one team?” A hint would be NO ONE. Everyone knows it was a stupid, tasteless comment and if you want to argue he lose his job by making that comment, then feel free. But to say he “damaged” or “injured” those girls is just insane. At the time of the comment you had Imus on one side of the line and EVERYONE ELSE on the side with the basketball team. Even those who say he shouldnt be fired are saying the comment was stupid. How bad can these girls possibly feel when everyone on the planet, now INCLUDING Imus, are on their side?
Yossarian:
Of course Sharpton and Jackson, amplified coverage on the incident. They did so in order to hold Imus accountable, make sure he was punished, and deter others making similar insults. The Rutgers B-Ball team does not seem to mind the extra attention if it helps hold Imus accountable.
If a man calls your wife a whore, do you let him get a way with it, just to avoid making a public issue of it? Maybe if it is just you and her in a bar and you want to avoid a scene but not a public figure like Imus.
Seriously everybody – moral reasoning 101. Suppose Imus got on the radio and called your wife, sister, or girlfriend a “whore”. What would you do?
It is you and Whitlock who want to compare them and put them in the same paragraph. I want to keep them separate.
Look – order things in your mind any way you want. What you’re doing is willfully ignoring (as Whitlock points out) the very real damage done by the hip-hop culture that Jackson and Sharpton won’t touch, while hyperdramatizing the effects of a stupid comment for which Imus has paid with his career (and not unjustifiably), and you’re doing it in a way that is obtuse and disingenuous.
People of all walks of like love violent and sexually charged entertainment. Our society is full of violence and sexism.
Which good, enlightened people fight against!
Those two probably connected in some very complicated and hard to trace way. That is just life.
Rick, in a career of specious cop-outs, you’ve just topped yourself.
Enlightened, good people of all races try to improve the world’s lot in life.
You play a smoking hot version of ‘Hey, Joe’, some guy in the audience goes out and kills his old lady. What are you going to do, give up Hendrix?
You think there’s any remote moral similarity between “Hey Joe” – a guy kills his old lady and spends the rest of his life on the run from a death rap – and hip-hop culture’s glorification of misogyny, crime and violence?
It is a serious and interesting problem, but essentially long term, vague, and sort of academic.
Black kids dropping out of school because their culture sees education as “selling out” is not vague. A generation of urban youth (of all races) seeing fathering illegitimate children and skipping out on babymomma as a cool thing isn’t academic.
They are, however, long term. One out of three ain’t bad.
In contrast, what Imus did directly caused immediate and serious harm to real specific identifiable people.
And again, you continue to compare a verbal insult with the detritus of hip-hop culture, failing to answer the direct question I gave you above. I am not amused. Please answer it now.
Back in the days when a racial epithet could be the entree to a situation that could end up with black men lynched and black women raped, then you would have had a point. Those days are long past, thankfully.
Indeed, when verbally attacked, the biggest “harm” comes when one believes all of society buys into the attack. You can not seriously believe that anyone on the Rutgers team believes that Imus’ remarks reflects the opinion of mainstream America.
Well, maybe you can…
It is wrong to say that anything else is the real issue.
Not “wrong” so much as “inconvenient to Rick’s supposed argument”.
Put it this way, you are in a bar, the jukebox is playing “Girls, Girls, Girls” by Motley Crue, some guy walks up and tells your girl she is a “whore”, what do you do:
1. Start a discussion about how pop culture denigrates women.
2. Ask the owner to put “Tiny Bubbles” on the juke.
3. Toss the dude out on his rear.
We can all debate 1 and 2 some other time, but 3 is the issue at hand.
The analogy is completely absurd. In a bar, there is imminent danger of a physical confrontation. In fact, your analogy – logically free-floating and dissociated as it is – supports Whitcomb and I, if we assume that the guy was made to feel calling women “whores” was acceptable by his own culture’s dysfunctions.
As my girlfriend is (most likely) not a whore, I would react by telling him to f*ck off, and ignoring him.
Just as the Rutgers girls would likely have done had Al and Jesse not poked their noses into things.
Unless he tried to start a scuffle; then, I’d rip his arms out.
“”Even those who say he shouldnt be fired are saying the comment was stupid.””
For the record I believe his firing was an over reaction. The suspension seemed to be a measured response. Now, if he were eventually canceled due to lack of sponsorships, that is the market reacting. Isn’t that how it is suppose to work? I can’t be sure since people think I am a liberal/commie *grin*
The two Toons I posted this AM said more than any words we could all put together:
http://centrisity.blogspot.com/2007/04/imus-in-toon.html
Flash
Centrisity.com
“Seriously everybody – moral reasoning 101. Suppose Imus got on the radio and called your wife, sister, or girlfriend a “whore”. What would you do?”
Well, first I’d have to ask my girlfriend if there was any truth to the charge, obviously.
Seriously, I’d for an apology and, getting that, move on with my life.
Oh, and if there were a way to get some cash out of the deal, I’d ask for that, too.
Seriously everybody – moral reasoning 101.
What Yossarian said.
Moral reasoning 102; if an idiot with no right to an opinion insults me, I give it the weight it’s worth. Which ain’t much.
Which is exactly what William Raspberry advised the black community to do over exactly this sort of thing.
Now, Rick – you’ve been asked several times to answer a specific question.
Can you do it?
The Rutgers B-ball team was very much harmed.
What Flash, Mitch and Yossarian said; I have to add this:
Nobody outside of college basketball fans even knew Rutgers had a women’s basketball team before this all started. What’s more, with all of the attention (press conferences, Oprah appearences) you’d think that Rutgers won the NCAA championship. (Candace Parker and Tennessee won 59-46.)
Also, considering that nearly nobody watches MSNBC: if Jackson and Sharpton didn’t amplify the Imus quote, would the Rutgers women (or just about the rest of the free world) even know about it?
Rick, please enroll in some logic and critical thinking classes.
Gotta side with Mitch against Rick on this one. Sticks and stones, man. Hurt feelings aren’t an injury. If you’re tough enough to climb the March Madness ladder, you’re tough enough to ignore some idiot insult. The rest of us shouldn’t be spending our time ensuring that no one ever gets their feelings hurt.
Here’s a second question for you, Rick. Please address both.
Assuming the Rutgers women were of the socio/ethno/economic class most commonly associated with Imus’ stupid (stupid, a thousand times stupid) insult (and I make no such blanket assumption), do you think that they might have endured worse things, in practical terms, in their lives than being called stupid names? Things like family members murdered, lost to drugs and/or incarcerated? (Leave aside for a moment whether on-court smack-talk is indeed nastier than anything Imus said – which is is, but let’s pretend it doesnt’ exist for now).
If so (and you’d be crazy not to agree), what do you think has a more proximate effect in causing and sustaining that death, misery and dislocation – dumb ignorant words from a washed-up white guy, or a systematic, cynical cheapening of Afro-American culture and life?
Have I been quoted by the evil one? “…..Jeez-sticks and stones!”
Mitch:
What is your question? Please be more specific that “compare” and use in the “same paragraph”? Seriously I tried to respond as best I could.
“Enlightened, good people of all races try to improve the world’s lot in life”. OK, what exactly are you and should we do to change the use of sex and violence in pop culture? You going to eliminate it? Make people not enjoy it? Get us all hooked on Lawrence Welk? Excuse the sarcasm, but people have been turning up their nose at the popular cultural, especially the pop culture of racial minorities and the lower social classes for all of time. Good luck with it. My guess, you do a post on how sick the black folks are (it always seems to be them) and move on.
“As my girlfriend is (most likely) not a whore, I would react by telling him to f*ck off, and ignoring him.”
“Well, first I’d have to ask my girlfriend if there was any truth to the charge, obviously”
“Hurt feelings aren’t an injury. . . The rest of us shouldn’t be spending our time ensuring that no one ever gets their feelings hurt.”
1. I don’t think you guys understand insults. The fact that a woman is not in fact a whore, makes it more, not less, insulting to call her one.
2. I guess we just disagree about the need to defend friends and family. Personally, I think you response is cowardly.
As for Paul – So you don’t mind if some guy calls your girl a whore, just as long as she don’t hear about it? You mind if she and another guy get together, as long as no one tells you about it?